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Proper course off the start line |
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piglet
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Topic: Proper course off the start line Posted: 28 May 16 at 4:42pm |
In a fleet start is there anything to stop a boat luffing the boat above just after the start.
Thanks in advance as always. |
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andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 16 at 5:17pm |
This all dependent on how far the leeward boat alters course and how the overlap came into being.
The leeward boat is always allowed go up to close hauled (assuming a beat to windward) She may only go above this if the overlap was initially established under circumstances set out in rule 17. The only exception being if she had rights to shoot the pin end. The windward boat is always bound by rule 11, so must make all reasonable attempts to keep clear even if leeward is breaking 17. |
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Andy Mck
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piglet
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 16 at 8:53am |
If the overlap is established at the start line then does 17 apply?
The scenario is a product of healthy bar debate and thus hypothetical but essentially can L luff above close hauled if overlapped to windward by W when the overlap was established before the start gun? |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 16 at 9:14am |
Yes.
Rule 17 can 'switch on' with a leeward overlap established before the start, and then 'lay dormant' while L has no proper course, that is L can luff without restriction (except for rules 15 and 16), until the starting signal, when she must not sail above her proper course.
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andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 16 at 12:26pm |
What we are trying to put into sensible English is: if the leeward boat established the overlap coming from astern within 2 boat lengths too leeward, i.e. In a situation that if it happened after the start gun she would not have "luffing rights" then she may not go above her proper course after the start gun. Before the gun she may as she has no defined proper course.
The problem is remembering how you all got there. We often play this one in match and team racing. Encouraging the leeward boat with no right to go above close hauled to squeeze up once they are bow out. Andy Edited by andymck - 29 May 16 at 12:26pm |
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Andy Mck
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piglet
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 16 at 9:48pm |
OK, so right to luff after the start is dependant on how the boats form up pre-start? Wouldn't work for me, I can't remember driving to work in the mornings.
However: Lets assume that pre-start, L becomes overlapped with W from outside 2BL to leeward, does this then remove 17, and can L now luff above close hauled after the start? |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 May 16 at 6:03am |
If L becomes overlapped with W from clear astern outside 2 boatlengths, then rule 17 does not apply at all.
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 May 16 at 10:21am |
I know we old salts talk about luffing rights, but with the concept basically gone from the book, is it still sensible? Wouldn't it be better to think about restrictions on the ROW boat's right to change course, which is the way things are worded now?
You know, there are no special circumstances in which the leeward ROW boat gains the right to change course, but there are special circumstances in which that right is restricted. Edited by JimC - 30 May 16 at 10:23am |
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andymck
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 May 16 at 10:31am |
You will note that I put them "luffing rights" in quotes. It is something that most sailors understand as the right of a boat to sail above its proper course. Most also understand the limitations as set out in 17 and refer to them as such. You will see we tried hard to put it into rules language. This is what we see at the bar, a confused look until we use terms people understand. It's the same when you go and see the doc.
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Andy Mck
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 May 16 at 10:43am |
All fair comment, but... New sailors who come into the sport have never seen that language in the rules and won't ever see it, and arguably these days they learn more from coaching and on line sources than from sailing and bar talk with older sailors. So by using out of date language are we not at risk of creating even more confusion for those who most need clarity? Sometimes it seems to me the worst messes in rules discussions are from those who learned the rules 30 years ago and haven't kept up to date. Edited by JimC - 30 May 16 at 10:44am |
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