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davidyacht View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Jan 16 at 1:29pm
Does strike me that ISAF or World Sailing or whatever they call themselves, should screen any nation that holds World Sailing events to ensure that all qualifying entrants can obtain Visas and compete.  Their failure to do so is abhorant.

These youngsters only get one bite at a Youth Worlds and to deny them a place is something that they may carry for the rest of their lives.  To suggest that they could compete but deny their national flag is wrong given that the flag ceremony is often an important part of a World Championship event ... It is like saying you competent but you must deny your nationhood.

Our NMA the RYA has close ties with ISAF and we should all pressure them to clean up their act.  IMO those considering RYA membership might consider the RYA's possible complicity in this state of affairs and vote with their feet.  Perhaps the RYA might then take notice and get their delegates to act.

Anyway, at least youth sailors might be able to learn from this how cr*p are the politics of sport, and sailing is no exception.
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 16 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Does strike me that ISAF or World Sailing or whatever they call themselves, should screen any nation that holds World Sailing events to ensure that all qualifying entrants can obtain Visas and compete. 



They say they did and had received assurances there would be no issue.

Malaysia's position on Israel is however long-standing and well-known. 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 16 at 7:44pm
So David, what about the situation from 1977 to 1991 when the Commonwealth nations and others excluded athletes from South Africa?  In that situation, would you have prevented every Commonwealth nation (including Malaysia, ironically) from hosting any world title in sailing for the entire period? 

Or would you have let sailors enter for South Africa and march under the South African flag, in contravention of the Gleneagles agreement, at the risk of exposing the sailors to demonstrations of the type seen when the Springboks played in NZ and of sanctions against the entire sport of sailing?  Or would you have let the South Africans come in quietly and not fly a flag that the world saw as a symbol of violent oppression?

What about those who claim that the sporting boycott of South Africa was a major force for good and a significant reason for the end of apartheid?  If so, then morally how can sailing ignore the humanitarian aspect and not join an international boycott designed to stop a government from shooting and oppressing its own people?

Please note I'm not really saying that there Malaysian action was anything but abhorrent; they also oppress their own people on racial grounds too.  But the general principle may be a bit more complicated than some people are saying, and there does seem to be a lot of people forgetting that we used to do it too, and we'd probably do it again in some situations. 

There is room to wonder whether ironically there isn't some racism in some criticisms of Malaysia's stance - it was OK for "us" to take such action, but when "they" take similar actions it's abhorrent.


PS - you're dead right (IMHO) that denying kids the chance to do a youth worlds is wrong.  It's sad to see people on Sailing Anarchy calling for teenagers to make a sacrifice that the internet heroes have never made.





Edited by Chris 249 - 02 Jan 16 at 9:25pm
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 16 at 10:37pm
i don't see that Malaysia's exclusion of Israeli Youth Sailors as being based on any humanitarian arguement.  IMO this was avoidable by ISAF, especially in the knowledge that Israeli sailors are a force at this level.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 16 at 7:08am
Apparently from the Malaysian point of view, Israel is not recognised because they are occupying the sovereign nation of Palestine and attacking its citizens, such as killing the people who were carrying humanitarian aid in the Gaza flotilla raid.. Opposition to killing those in humanitarian convoys can easily be classed as "humanitarian".  

If I was a Muslim or from the Middle East, I may think that a boycott aimed at removing Israel from Palestine was a good thing.  There were plenty of people who thought that the Gleneagles agreement was wrong too, since it was in aid of people who included "terrorists" and communists, or simply because they believed that sporting boycotts were wrong.  I don't agree that the Gleneagles agreement was wrong, but that's a personal political/ethical decision and who is to say that World Sailing has to agree with my political decision?  

It therefore appears that ISAF is supposed to say "this boycott is good and must be supported by ISAF, that boycott is bad and must not be supported by ISAF".  Is that really the job of an international sporting body?  ISAF can't even following the UN to get guidance - there are many UN resolutions against Israel.  

Let me underline once again the fact that I am no friend of Malaysia's racist official policies, or any other racist policies for that matter.  Nor am I saying Israel should not exist.  All I'm saying is that the whole question of whether ISAF should only go to countries that allow free access to all is very murky, and if it had been applied in the past the UK, Australia, Canada, Malaysia etc would not have been allowed to hold world titles for many years.   

By the way, you may want to check whether the UK allows all athletes to enter.



Edited by Chris 249 - 03 Jan 16 at 7:45am
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 16 at 8:40am
Malaysia has never recognised the state of Israel and that pre-dates the situation in Gaza by decades. Therefore it is not a protest against the humanitarian situation there.

Whether one agreed with it or not, Gleneagles was a joint Commonwealth agreement. There is no such internationally agreed boycott against Israel, therefore Malaysia's position is not the same thing. There are multiple UN resolutions concerning Israel but none calls for a boycott on Israeli goods or travel restrictions on Israeli citizens.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 16 at 9:18am
To my rather naive eye, the UN is there to resolve such issues ... Not individual states.  I was wondering about starting a new thread "the UN is a broken organisation; Discuss" should this be in the Racing Rules or Organisation sections?

Anyway, ISAF should have seen this coming, they did not do their due diligence, and should have sought assurances from the Malaysian government before signing up ... I am sure that there would have been other countries that could have hosted a true World Championship.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 16 at 9:28am
Originally posted by blueboy

Malaysia has never recognised the state of Israel and that pre-dates the situation in Gaza by decades. Therefore it is not a protest against the humanitarian situation there.

The Malaysian government says that it is.  See the website for Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the http://www.kln.gov.my/web/guest/bilateral

Is the Malaysian position genuine?  Who knows?  The Malaysia/Israel relationship is full of inconsistencies.  But what is ISAF to do? Carry out a full investigation to decide exactly what the motivation of a country is, irrespective of what the government claims?  How does one do that?


Whether one agreed with it or not, Gleneagles was a joint Commonwealth agreement. There is no such internationally agreed boycott against Israel, therefore Malaysia's position is not the same thing. There are multiple UN resolutions concerning Israel but none calls for a boycott on Israeli goods or travel restrictions on Israeli citizens.

The Arab League has had an "internationally agreed boycott against Israel."  I can't find out if that includes sports but it would appear to be likely.  

To say that only agreements between nations count would seem to be discriminating against unaligned countries.  Greece did not allow South African athletes to play in the country as a protest against apartheid. Was that wrong?  So it was OK for the UK or Australia to ban South African athletes, but not OK for Greece to ban South African athletes?  

The Davis Cup rejected a team from apartheid South Africa, despite the fact that it was not ruled by the Gleneagles Agreement.  Was that wrong?

If ASEAN came to a joint agreement to ban sailors from a certain country, would that make it OK?  

What would happen if Malaysia's discrimination against its citizens of Chinese origin became worse, and (for example) they would not allow them to compete in sailing for Malaysia?  Should the UK allow (say) the 10th best Malaysian kids to compete in an ISAF worlds in the UK while allowing the better ones to stay at home just because they are of Chinese descent?

Would it be OK for the UK to ban a racist Malaysian team if the Commonwealth came to an agreement to do so, but not if the Commonwealth hadn't finished voting on the matter?

Would it be OK if the UK could ban a race-based Malaysian team because the Commonwealth said so, but not OK for Greece to ban a race-based Malaysian team because they are not part of the Commonwealth?









 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 16 at 9:49am
Originally posted by davidyacht

To my rather naive eye, the UN is there to resolve such issues ... Not individual states. 

Anyway, ISAF should have seen this coming, they did not do their due diligence, and should have sought assurances from the Malaysian government before signing up ... I am sure that there would have been other countries that could have hosted a true World Championship.

Ok, so you agree than that (say) Greece should not have been allowed to hold ISAF world titles while they barred South African teams.  Effectively you are saying that they should not have been allowed to put pressure on South Africa to end apartheid.

Is the UK now going to be banned from holding ISAF world titles because it has recently denied a visa to a sports official because of his political connections?




Edited by Chris 249 - 03 Jan 16 at 10:08am
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 16 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Chris 249


 Greece did not allow South African athletes to play in the country as a protest against apartheid. Was that wrong? 


Yes and the same answer to your similar examples.

So it was OK for the UK or Australia to ban South African athletes, but not OK for Greece to ban South African athletes?  



The UK was bound to do so by the Gleneagles agreement. That is not the same as action by an individual country. I'm not entirely happy about any set of nations except the UN making such a decision but the Commonwealth is multi-regional and multi-ethnic.




Is the UK now going to be banned from holding ISAF world titles because it has recently denied a visa to a sports official because of his political connections?


I'm afraid I don't know what case you are talking about. Provide a link to the story and I'll tell you what I think.




Edited by blueboy - 03 Jan 16 at 10:35am
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