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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

How is following some advice based on a 'I tried this ****, it worked for me, it might work for you' basis in anyway flawed decision making?    


Because there is absolutely no evidence that it did work. 

apart from the guy saying first hand that he noticed a benefit?  OK then, that's not enough for you maybe, but I'd give it a go before resorting to NHS quacks and chemicals.  

And how does the chap who is reporting this first hand account have any idea that the benefit he noticed can actually be attributed to the treatment in question and not something else?

I'm not saying he's doing it with malicious intent but the fact is,   there is no evidence of any connection between the two events.

Maybe I'm wrong... feel free to point out where the proof is  Wink


mate, there's clinical research to suggest a placebo is as a good as a cure if care to hunt the evidence on the internet hard enough.  

But you prove the guy who claims to feel better from it is 'wrong' before I justify he's right, which he is, if he feel better for it, who the hell are we to tell him it was probably the Toffee Crisp in the waiting room, not the treatment he's received?

 That was my point... It could well have been placebo and not actually the treatment.  It seems you agree with me after all.  Hurrah he's better!  Even if it was placebo, I doubt it makes any difference to him, he'll be just as happy.  Doesn't mean you can start claiming that bowen works and we should all rise up against mainstream medicine.  All you could possibly claim is that placebo works, and we all knew that anyway.  How do we know? Because the same scientific methods used to prove/disprove the claims in mainstream medicine have been used to prove that it does.

On to your second point...

I'm not the one who's claiming anything, so it's not up to me to prove anything.  I'm just pointing out the flaws in people's reasoning.

Regardless, I did just throw reasonable doubt on the fact that it was the treatment and not the toffee crisp/over-ripe avocado he allegedly ate.  Unless you now have anything to add that removes that doubt, the doubt remains and the point I was trying to make, is made.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:05pm
Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received.  The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   

I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    

My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    


Edited by turnturtle - 21 Dec 15 at 3:06pm
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:20pm
Feel free to point out where...  Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

So far so good.  Bloke feels better, life is good.


Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received. 

Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground.  I'll grant you a pass on that for now...


Originally posted by turnturtle

 The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   



Aaaand now I won't.  No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case.  you have no idea what worked.  I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation.

All you know is this:
1. man felt sick
2. man lived his life for a few weeks
3. man feels better

There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3.   You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case.  You have no idea that it did.  Neither does he.   Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.  


Originally posted by turnturtle


I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    


Good, neither am I.  What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong.  You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Originally posted by turnturtle


My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    

Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone.  Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.


Edited by bustinben - 21 Dec 15 at 3:29pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:49pm
If it worked for him, and he's convinced, then it worked - albeit in an isolated case.  Take enough people extolling the virtues (as you have with Bowen Therapy) and you have quantifiable social sample, even if said collective was not created in the artificial environment of lab or university research centre.   There are many ways to generate evidence, I wouldn't overlook Anthropological techniques if we're getting detailed- and they would back this up, along with Chinese herbs and all manner of other non-western mainstream practice.  

Please remember, you are trying to discredit what someone feels about their own well-being after seeking independent help, and then being content with that help they received.  And you claim that I am on shaky philosophic ground?  Have you considered your own ethical position?  Do you discredit all forms of non-invasive and non-prescriptive psychiatric help too?  Or just because this is deemed 'clinical' or 'mainstream' enough to get (a woeful) central Government funding stream via the National Health Service, it's OK and valid?    

Sure, I can see where you are going - in that Chaos Theory means it could well be that overly-ripe avocado, or indeed the particular brand of vaginal lubricant his wife used last night; how do we really, really know anything about the world we live in and the bodies we inhabit?  However I'd go on a more basic cause and effect theory myself- and there's enough folks extolling the virtues of Bowen to not discredit it as flatly as you do- especially in the face of someone who has just received treatment and seems happy with their experience.   

This has been an interesting debate - beats PY and whether the Aero is sh*t or not.  I guess like the Aero, I'd say you probably have to try it before really writing it off.  



Edited by turnturtle - 21 Dec 15 at 3:51pm
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

If it worked for him, and he's convinced, then it worked - albeit in an isolated case.

Let's just agree to disagree on the definition of "something working" then and move on.

Originally posted by turnturtle

  Take enough people extolling the virtues (as you have with Bowen Therapy) and you have quantifiable social sample, even if said collective was not created in the artificial environment of lab or university research centre.   There are many ways to generate evidence, I wouldn't overlook Anthropological techniques if we're getting detailed- and they would back this up, along with Chinese herbs and all manner of other non-western mainstream practice.  

I'll stick to things that survive a randomised double blind placebo controlled trial if at all possible thanks.  It's a pretty simple concept, and it's rather good at separating the truth from the b**locks.

Originally posted by turnturtle


Please remember, you are trying to discredit what someone feels about their own well-being after seeking independent help, and then being content with that help they received. 

I'm not attempting to discredit how someone feels about their own well being.  I'm discrediting using that to extol the virtues of unproven treatments.  Doing so has life or death implications in some situations.

Originally posted by turnturtle


 And you claim that I am on shaky philosophic ground?  Have you considered your own ethical position?  Do you discredit all forms of non-invasive and non-prescriptive psychiatric help too?  Or just because this is deemed 'clinical' or 'mainstream' enough to get (a woeful) central Government funding stream via the National Health Service, it's OK and valid?    


I'm doing this because of my ethical position.  Encouraging people to make bad choices regarding their health based on little to no evidence whilst swatting away what mainstream science has to say is horribly irresponsible. I'm not saying that's what you're setting out to do necessarily, just that that might be the effect.  



Originally posted by turnturtle

Sure, I can see where you are going - in that Chaos Theory means it could well be that overly-ripe avocado, or indeed the particular brand of vaginal lubricant his wife used last night; how do we really, really know anything about the world we live in and the bodies we inhabit? 

It's actually very simple. You subject the treatment you think works to a proper controlled study with sufficient numbers of participants and the correct procedures around it and as if by magic, you find out the truth.  

There are no excuses for not doing so really.  

There's a name for alternative medicines that have gone through this process and have been proven to work...  medicine.

Originally posted by turnturtle

 However I'd go on a more basic cause and effect theory myself- and there's enough folks extolling the virtues of Bowen to not discredit it as flatly as you do- especially in the face of someone who has just received treatment and seems happy with their experience.   

Well, for a new treatement, perhaps that could be the case.  I'd say that it would warrant some proper studies being done to find out the truth about it.  I wouldn't say that "lots of people say that it works" means that it works, the fact that homeopathy survives is evidence enough of that.

Originally posted by turnturtle

This has been an interesting debate - beats PY and whether the Aero is sh*t or not.  I guess like the Aero, I'd say you probably have to try it before really writing it off.  
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by bustinben

 

There's a name for alternative medicines that have gone through this process and have been proven to work...  medicine.


if there's a antonym for Godwin's Law on the internet, then it's probably paraphrasing Tim Minchin.  
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

 

There's a name for alternative medicines that have gone through this process and have been proven to work...  medicine.


if there's a antonym for Godwin's Law on the internet, then it's probably paraphrasing Tim Minchin.  

If you can prove him wrong you're probably going to win a nobel prize  LOL  When you do, feel free to come back here and gloat, I'll eat my humble pie.



Edited by bustinben - 21 Dec 15 at 4:33pm
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Feel free to point out where...  Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

So far so good.  Bloke feels better, life is good.


Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received. 

Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground.  I'll grant you a pass on that for now...


Originally posted by turnturtle

 The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   



Aaaand now I won't.  No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case.  you have no idea what worked.  I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation.

All you know is this:
1. man felt sick
2. man lived his life for a few weeks
3. man feels better

There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3.   You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case.  You have no idea that it did.  Neither does he.   Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.  


Originally posted by turnturtle


I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    


Good, neither am I.  What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong.  You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Originally posted by turnturtle


My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    

Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone.  Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.


As someone who refused bowen at first (several years infact) for being hippy mumbo jumbo, but took it on as an almost last resort and feeling better because of it i can say hand on heart its not a placebo in the sense you are suggesting (red pill / blue pill), yes my brain could want the pain gone so bad it tricks itself anyway and could be that placebo effect, but as you say without measuring the billions of things that occur daily no one can know. Please tell me who is able in the medical world able to measure these billions of things to prove otherwise?  If you are able to prove  me wrong about the pain i feel in my own body then you can save me some money and find me the fix all solution too.  cheers in advance, i look forward to pain free work and sailing......
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6491 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:45pm
It wasn't so long ago folk regarded Osteopathy in the same manner, personally I still do, the relief it brings for me is only temporary and the following day you end up feeling worse.

This Bowen things is as much about the way it is delivered as what it is that is being delivered, so until you try it you'll never know.

As for logic trolls, you are never going to convince them of anything other than that you have responded to the booming resonance of their self righteous disaproval.

So tell them it's time to play a game of f**k off and they should go first..

Edited by iGRF - 21 Dec 15 at 4:47pm
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by bustinben

Feel free to point out where...  Do me a favour and help me get it right by doing to my argument what I'm doing to yours below.  

Originally posted by turnturtle

Nope, you've lost, your logic is flawed. You just can't see it.    

My logic is simple- man feels pain, man finds third party to offer 'cure', man no longer feels pain.

So far so good.  Bloke feels better, life is good.


Originally posted by turnturtle

Whether the cure has scientific credibility as defined by you (or I) is immaterial if the man feels like he's better from the treatment received. 

Aaaah now we're starting to get onto shakey ground.  I'll grant you a pass on that for now...


Originally posted by turnturtle

 The treatment has worked in this isolated case- and that is the only claim that has been made in a peer-to-peer recommendation, yet you feel the need to discredit it.   



Aaaand now I won't.  No, the treatment hasn't worked in this isolated case.  you have no idea what worked.  I refer you back to the undocumented over-ripe avocado situation.

All you know is this:
1. man felt sick
2. man lived his life for a few weeks
3. man feels better

There is absolutely no way you can say which of the billions of little things that happened in his life during point 2, resulted in point 3.   You cannot in any way say that the treatment worked in this isolated case.  You have no idea that it did.  Neither does he.   Please do point out where the flaw is in this point I'm making.  


Originally posted by turnturtle


I'm not saying that Bowen works or doesn't, I'm simply stripping back the logic you claim to base your argument on.    


Good, neither am I.  What you are saying though, is that it worked in this isolated case, which is wrong.  You have no idea whether it worked in this case.
Originally posted by turnturtle


My own take on it... I'd probably think it was a load of b**locks if I tried it (ever been to a Hypnobirthing course?!?) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it before passing judgement.    

Same here, I might try it to, if it thought there was sufficient evidence to warrant it. Even if I was then cured, I wouldn't go round claiming that it worked on that basis alone.  Once you've committed to thinking about things properly, there's no turning back unfortunately.


As someone who refused bowen at first (several years infact) for being hippy mumbo jumbo, but took it on as an almost last resort and feeling better because of it i can say hand on heart its not a placebo in the sense you are suggesting (red pill / blue pill), yes my brain could want the pain gone so bad it tricks itself anyway and could be that placebo effect, but as you say without measuring the billions of things that occur daily no one can know. Please tell me who is able in the medical world able to measure these billions of things to prove otherwise?  If you are able to prove  me wrong about the pain i feel in my own body then you can save me some money and find me the fix all solution too.  cheers in advance, i look forward to pain free work and sailing......


You can know. A placebo controlled double blind trial does just that.  You take a large enough group of people, you randomise them into two groups, you subject half to the treatment, half to a pretence at the treatment. 

You measure the outcomes and you apply the proper statistical methods to verify that your result didn't happen by chance.

http://i-base.info/ttfa/8-clinical-trials-and-research/8-7-randomised-double-blind-placebo-controlled-trials/

Double blinding is not always possible depending on the treatment in question, but it's the standard that should be aspired to.

I'm genuinely interested in how you know that what you feel in your own body is not placebo.  You'd be the first person in history to be able to do that.  The placebo effect is amazing, strange, and incredibly effective seeing as it is basically nothing.   Red pills are more effective than white ones, how much you pay changes the amount of pain relief you feel, placebo injections are more effective than placebo pills, but neither are as effective as placebo operations...

All of these things have been measured properly in repeatable studies.
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