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Moving the windward mark

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    Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 5:22pm
In a handicap race where different boats are doing different amount of laps I assume marks cant be moved or it wouldn't work?

If the race officer did this, what would you put on your protest form?




Edited by ClubRacer - 10 Oct 15 at 8:22pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 8:44pm
Depending on the course it may be possible to juggle things so the course length doesn't change significantly. If that's the case then I don't see a problem.

However if you genuinely believe your finishing place has been made worse then you make it a request for redress :


62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider
redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a
race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made
significantly worse by
(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest
committee, organizing authority, equipment inspection
committee or measurement committee for the event, but not by
a protest committee decision when the boat was a party to the
hearing;

However changing a mark is not ny itself a wrong action, and so its quite an uphill challenge this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 8:50pm
I can't see why adjusting the windward leg of each lap to be true to the persistently shifting wind (or, indeed, in any other way) wouldn't work, as long as the change to the leg was signalled before the boats in the affected division began the leg, in accordance with rule 33, and the mark wasn't moved out of its old position before all the boats on the preceding lap had rounded it.

If the RO screwed up, you could put on your protest form 'I request redress because the Race Officer did such and such (for example: changed the leg of the course not in accordance with rule 33, and made my score worse through no fault of my owm.'
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 8:57pm
It could make a difference if average lap times are being used and the time it takes to complete a lap is changed by the movement.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:03pm
All hypothetical
Boat 1 does 3 laps, lap 1 is a 1km 1tack beat, lap 2 is the same but lap 3 is a true beat
Boat 2 does 2 laps, both laps are the 1 tack beats

Surely boat 1 is getting screwed on corrected time because of the extra distance having to be sailed

Its immediately obvious that the race wasn't run fairly but cant find anything to put on a protest form that would get the race thrown out

The only way i can see it working for a handicap race is having every boat doing the same number of exactly the same laps


Edit; You mention redress but some people aren't willing to protest and some will want to cash in on the series score
ultimately this decision screws the whole series


Edited by ClubRacer - 10 Oct 15 at 9:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:11pm
after having another look it looks as if i could protest under 62.1A as per jims comment and it could potentially be abandoned under 64.2

anyone concur? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:14pm
Thing is you are always stuffed by a big wind change in a handicap race with boats of widely varying performance. If the beat turns into a fetch and the fast boats do one beat and two fast fetches and the slow boats one beat and one fetch then the race is just as unfair to the slow boats. So bearing in mind moving marks relative to the wind is intrinsically a reasonable action you need to prove that moving the marks made the race a whole lot more unfair than it would have been if they hadn't moved them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 15 at 9:25pm
No wind shifts occurred during the race and the outcome of the results was purely down to the movement of the mark

I can appreciate that wind shifts basically make the not so fair handicap racing even more unfair depending on what speed/type of the boat you're sailing is and you take it on the chin as no persons actions have had an outcome on the race

Even if the race was a parade then it would have been more fair than other boats effectively EDIT: taking a detour to the finish 




Edited by ClubRacer - 10 Oct 15 at 9:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 9:10am
I've never come across a (deliberate) mark move in year's of average lap racing.  I've also seen a race thrown out because the windward mark drifted as the tide came in.

I think at every club I've ever raced at on an average lap basis, the view of the fleet and race team would have been that you accept the way in which wind-shifts change the course, but that the course doesn't get changed.

In fact some of those clubs had fixed marks.  Looking at it in that context is, I think, quite useful.  No-one would ever have suggested during an average lap race that the mark should be changed even if the leg distance and orientation remained the same.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 15 at 10:19am
Originally posted by sargesail

I think at every club I've ever raced at on an average lap basis, the view of the fleet and race team would have been that you accept the way in which wind-shifts change the course, but that the course doesn't get changed.


That's one approach, and a perfectly reasonable one. It has the subtext which the OP seems to be coming from that losing out because of the weather is fair, but losing out because of RC actions is unfair. I don't think, though, you can say that other ways of managing races are intrinsically wrong. A good team should be seeking ways of making the racing as fair as possible for as many of the competitors as possible.

But although emotionally yours is a very compelling argument, I think in real terms it makes no difference if your race is stuffed by RC actions before the start (not setting a course that makes the race as fair as possible as conditions change) from RC actions after the start (changing the course to react to the changing conditions). But it is easy to imagine that someone who was lined up for a really good result because they threw a double six when the course was set badly will be much more aggrieved by the course being corrected than the person who was stuffed by the bad course will be aggrieved if its not changed.

But honestly, if you're at a club where moving the marks is routine, and its a windward leeward course, surely shifting the windward round the radius from the leeward is a good thing to do. But the other problem is always that in a well spread out handicap fleet its difficult to find an opportunity to shift the mark without causing confusion.

Edited by JimC - 11 Oct 15 at 10:21am
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