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Luffing rights

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Luffing rights
    Posted: 27 Sep 15 at 5:44pm
And today I enjoyed a sail in an L3k with a decent crew, in fact it was twin commodore powered as we had a visit from the Redoubt banditerati, no luffing today mind, it was blowing top end of a five and only 7 boats finished out of twenty starters, amazing how a drop of wind stops all that shouting, that and getting a mouth full of brine everytime i went to open the source of all wisdom...

Not that that wisdom stopped us getting caned by a couple of kids in a Feva, I've got a picture of them somewhere I shall off and find it..

Here they are last week at the KSSA, it was probably windier today, they finished 3rd on corrected. Hannah and Alex

Edited by iGRF - 27 Sep 15 at 5:51pm
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yottiemad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yottiemad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 15 at 5:26pm
now that's the sort of comment we silent watchers would expect of GRF, none of that ' how I enjoyed sail in merlin with a decent crew'. Clap
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 15 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The sentence "I'll luff you off the course if you go to windward of me" is one I don't hear much any more... maybe I simply sail in more gentlemanly classes these days? Or were sailors farmore rude and aggressive in the olden days?


You should come down to hythe and try taking me to weather, you'll hear it soon enough, we still sail triangle sausage.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 15 at 2:51pm
"Yep, being luffed is normally only a problem for people who attempt to pass aggressively close to windward. "

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 15 at 1:15pm
Yep, being luffed is normally only a problem for people who attempt to pass aggressively close to windward.

One alternative to the rules as they currently work would be to have something like no boat is allowed to sail above or below its proper course whilst boats are overlapped, which would add a lot of complication and fundamentally change things.
It would also encourage faster boats to beat up slower boats by passing aggressively close to windward, which would make pursuit races pretty ugly experiences for the mid fleet.
If you wanted to avoid that then you might have to add something like boats passing to windward have to maintain 2 boat lengths separation, which makes the rules even more complicated still.
And then, as well as making the rules much more complicated, we've put competitors into a considerable straightjacket as to where they can sail.
Then imagine the situation with 4 or 5 boats overlapped, all of which probably have different proper courses.
"Sail your proper course"
"I can't, two boats below his proper course is higher and I have to go up"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 15 at 12:55pm
Or go very high.
If you are far enough above them they will end up going astern of you or you will be able to call clear ahead earlier due to relative positions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 15 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Don't quite know. Just my attempt to deal with 2 issues at the same time -rule simplication and the problems of agressive sailors that think its really smart to get into agressive luffing matches- not really what I go sailing for.

Then pass to leeward!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 15 at 7:42pm
Don't quite know. Just my attempt to deal with 2 issues at the same time -rule simplication and the problems of agressive sailors that think its really smart to get into agressive luffing matches- not really what I go sailing for.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 15 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if we just ditched this rule!

The rule in question is windward boat gives way to leeward boat. If you ditch that what would you replace it with?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 15 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by about a boat

OK. I am not sure if my logic is correct but I thought the reasoning behind the rule to give entitlement to luffing rights was probably as result of other rules.

Thus a boat establishing an overlap from clear astern and within two boat lengths does not gain luffing rights to protect their wind since their favoured course would be to go to windward rather than leeward. Am I correct in proper course does not apply?

A boat that does establish luffing rights can protect their wind right up to forcing the other boat to head to wind at which point if windward boat pass head to wind would be required to keep clear until on a close hauled course.


I tried to explain it politely, but I apparently didn't persuade you to join us in the 21st Century.

There is no longer a rule that gives an entitlement to 'luffing rights'. Rule thirtywhateveritwas, which said 'a boat may luff as she pleases' was removed in the 1995 rewrite.

Luffing to protect your position and your clear air is not prohibited, but is subject to the limitations in rules 16, 17, and 14.

Luffing rights, such as they were, were only enunciated in the rules as a starting point so that limitations could be imposed upon those rights.

I don't think the concept of tactical defensive or offensive luffing, or rules affecting it have ever been as a result of, or facilitative of any other rule or rules.

In the language of recent rules, a boat does not 'establish an overlap', boats 'become overlapped'.

Any boat that becomes overlapped (to leeward) from clear astern gains right of way, subject to limitations on changing course under rule 16, and initially, under rule 15.

If that boat became overlapped within two boat lengths, she is additionally limited to not sailing above her proper course, by rule 17. You are not correct to say that proper course does not apply.

Your last paragraph is not clear to me.

A leeward boat may change course towards the wind.(luff), and a windward boat is required to keep clear as long as the leeward boat stays on the same tack, that is, up until the leeward boat passes head to wind, when rule 13 While Tacking applies.

Originally posted by about a boat

Why is a boat (with luffing rights) allowed to push another up to head to wind? and;

Why is the method of establishing the overlap so important as to give rise to this right?


I can only answer your first question with another:Why should she be prohibited from doing so?

In answer to your second, The right of any boat to change course is limited only by other applicable rules.

The RRS in general, are an 'open'rule set: Anything which is not forbidden is permitted, in contrast to a 'closed' rule set, like some class rules, where Anything not permitted is forbidden.
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