Penalties

   Mr Spoons, you are quite right about levels of competitiveness, and even in the same race, I'll judge whether someone is out to win or learning how to race, and behave differently. But ensuring you are on starboard when you meet another boat is hardly pushing any boundaries.

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Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Penalties Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 8:00pm
	Mr Spoons, you are quite right about levels of competitiveness, and even in the same race, I'll judge whether someone is out to win or learning how to race, and behave differently. But ensuring you are on starboard when you meet another boat is hardly pushing any boundaries.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

423zero Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3399	Post Options Post Reply Quote 423zero Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:47pm
	Sam S, try watching competetive Laser sailors to see rules abused and pushed to the limit.

Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3395	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:26pm
	I do too, the trick is to assess the level of 'rule aggression' at the club/event you are taking part in and behave accordingly, I will be much less aggressive at a Wednesday night club race than I might at a National Championships because what would be considered fair at a Nationals might be considered a bit OTT at a club race. But I race for fun not to win an Olympic Gold. Paul Elvstrom nailed it when he said "You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors." Nobody is going to lose the respect of the other competition in the ACWS by pushing the rules to the limit (though they would if they , say, used an foil or other piece of equipment they know to be illegal).
	Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 7:07pm
	I'll use rules to my advantage every time I race, as will those I'm racing against. That is the game. Otherwise, it is simply either sailing in company or a drag race. Match racing will take that to the next level, as they don't have to worry about their position in a fleet. 2nd is last. Using the rules to win is sportsmanship. Abusing them is unsporting.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3395	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 6:54pm
	But the point is that they are simply 'tactics', nothing dirty about them, all the teams have the same opportunities to use the rules to their advantage as Ainsley did to beat Robert Scheidt and secure an Olympic gold in the final race at Sydney 2000.
	Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Sam S Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 04 Jun 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam S Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 6:34pm
	I totally agree. I am not against the rule, only the abuse of it in what I call dirty-tactics.
	Sam

Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3395	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 6:20pm
	Gently now, my namesake is a newb here and may not have any racing experience. Sam S, I'm not a fan of the 'win at all costs' attitude we see in so much sport these days, and am a huge believer in sportsmen 'doing the right thing' (I was the guy who re-rounded a touched mark even if nobody saw me touch it.....). But, the rules are the same for everybody and at that level they all have an intimate knowledge of them. Would you describe it as 'bad sportsmanship' in a football game for a defender to step up field causing the opposing forward to be offside as he receives a pass? Much the same thing IMHO. And, while I didn't see the incident in question, the ROW rules are even more important (if that's possible) in these big fast AC boats due to their lack of manoeuvrability. It's well worth reading Eric Twiname's brilliant book "Start To Win" or at least the chapter/s relating to rules and protests. He wrote much sense.
	Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"

Sam S Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 04 Jun 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam S Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:59pm
	The 'Port-Starboard' rule was implimented for give-way purposes, not to screw up the other boats chances of winning. That is like allowing tripping in a soccer game. I agree with the rule, but not when used to stiffle your competitor. This aught to be a gentleman's sport.
	Sam

ClubRacer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 26 Sep 15 Online Status: Offline Posts: 210	Post Options Post Reply Quote ClubRacer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:37pm
	both boats want to be in the same place at the same time the only way to be in that place is to prevent the other boat from being there Sailing has always been about who can use the rules to their advantage, no sailor in the world has ever won a championship event without having to out smart the other boats on the course and this is exactly the same. Keep the others boats behind you and you'l always win to come out with comments about it being un-sportsman like and not pure sailing is completely ignorant

Sam S Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 04 Jun 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam S Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Jun 17 at 5:05pm
	Using the rules to your advantage is IMHO 'bad sportsmanship'. Just because you can 'trip up' the other team to 'win' your race, does not mean that you won on an even footing. And that is my point. If the race is about the skill of the team at sailing their boat the fastest, then we have a true representation of a team and boat.
	Sam