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Raceboards v Raceboats, rules and complaints

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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Raceboards v Raceboats, rules and complaints
    Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 9:53am
So I'm beginning to get some grief being probably the person most responsible for insisting we include what at the moment is the odd racing sailboard into the Sunday morning series, this weekend it went a bit light so the Contenders didn't have it the usual own way and a couple of them started up with the 'he's breaking the rules' and the conversation once again attempts to split the Windsurfers v Dinghy Sailors as different types of people the one being an unmanageable none conformist group and the other being the rule abiding conformists.

At first it seemed they had a point, the raceboard hit a mark and didn't do turns, which of course they do, marks have for the last twenty years been used as much for something to help bear off round, then there was the question of light air pumping which he was engaged in, and of course no dinghy would ever kinetically assist itself.

So my answer is we handicap on the assumption he'll pump so the 850 stands and if necessary increases, he won last week but didn't this. As to the mark rounding I think we'll compromise by insisting on turns, not that this particular individual is known for doing his turns when I raced him in windsurfers, but then that is the point, he is no different to the dingy sailor that screwed the end of the spring series by coming in late using the demo icon in light airs getting involved in an absolute text book port starboard forcing a bear away by the series leader, then beating them into a third place by not taking penalty turns, which lost them the series. "Oh he's known for that' came the response, so... it remains, there is no difference between us, both types have rule breakers.

So what should be done? These matters are usually solved in a shouty but good humoured bar discussion, but as our numbers are growing and the quality of sailors and numbers thereof that could win, given a series went down to the wire and any of four could have one it by one point, it is becoming quite serious.

So there is tension, but, imv it's a bit like like racism, this suggestion that because the craft they are riding appears on the face of it to be different, shouldn't hold water if you'll pardon the pun. Rules get broken by everyone, what is needed is a quicker protest/decision and more of them, but nobody likes to undertake in a small club.

But the assertion that the two craft can't race together because one breaks the rules more than the other, or one requires more kinetic input than the other, sorry that just isn't the case.


Edited by Woodburner - 29 Jun 15 at 9:55am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 10:16am
What may be more of a problem is how much the windsurfing competition rules in the appendix clash with normal RRS. That might require some careful analysis, and the competitors would need to be very sure exactly what RRS they are sailing under. A lot of standard RRS doesn't work very well with boards, hence the appendix, but the mark rounding rules look different enough for there to be room for confusion, what with no three boats length zone and all the rest of it. I presume all board racing uses the appendix?

I'm trying to think if there's any reason why Sis shouldn't allow pumping for boards but not dinghies. Given enough data the Portsmouth Yardstick calculations should balance that out over a series.

However there might be a lot of tension if in a tight fight for a race or series a board put a tight cover on a dinghy pumping like crazy, because it would slow down the dinghy much more, but that ought to be regarded as reasonable I think. I haven't raced with top class board sailors, but would I be right in thinking that most dinghies should be able to tack faster than most boards? In which case getting out of a tight cover ought to be fairly easy upwind at least.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 10:21am
I can see that allowing one boat to pump round the course and another not is going to call trouble. The handicapping system can't account for it because it has so much more effect in light winds than in strong. If one boat is allowed to flap sails in no wind, and so move, and another has to sit there and wait, you are just storing trouble. Ban it. Only answer, really.

As for the cheating, why not run a series with an umpire or 2? Give them the power to impose on the spot penalties for what they see, whether protest is called or not. I expect our rules people will say that breaks some ISAF code or some such, but if all the racers agree to it beforehand, I can't see that matters. Hopefully, they will then have a "reset" button hit in their heads as to what is allowed normally.

Edited by Rupert - 29 Jun 15 at 10:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Rupert

The handicapping system can't account for it because it has so much more effect in light winds than in strong

Is that really any different to boats that have radically different performance in different conditions? Is it much worse than those pesky Enterprises and Nationals roll tacking away from me in light airs because I've never worked out how to roll tack the Canoe?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 12:38pm
I was going to point out the roll tacking lightwind performers, wether they would beat a seriously good pumping windsurfer I don't know, but if the pumping windsurfer had a handicap of 850 against whatever a National 12, Firefly, he will still lose.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 1:05pm
If you have reasonable numbers sailing do you really need to have the boards and dinghies competing against each other? They can race the same course if that's convenient, perhaps with a separate start and compete in a different series. Trying to get two very different type of craft and styles of sailing competing for the same competitions may just cause more problems than any advantages it produces.

I can't see how you are ever going avoid considerable tensions if you have one class allowed to pump and others not racing against each other. Contenders are allowed to pump at class events under certain conditions, but as far as I know rarely or ever, are allowed to in club handicap racing (and wouldn't really expect to be able to), why should people who sail boats like that find a solution that allows boards to pump but them not to acceptable?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by PeterG

Trying to get two very different type of craft and styles of sailing competing for the same competitions may just cause more problems than any advantages it produces.


We do it all the time though. Boats that are allowed trapezes against boats that aren't, boats with ballast against boats without, all the rest of it. Not much is more ludicrous than Optimists against 49ers in tidal conditions for instance.

I think most of us know when we hit the startline of a handicap race whether we're liable to be competing for a win in this race or just hoping to salvage the best result we can for the series and be frst whatever-we're-sailing...

The thing about an empirical handicap is that you can make a reasonably fair comparison between the performance of radically different craft over the course of a series. If a fair handicap has been evolved for boards that includes pumping, and a fair handicap has been evolved for dinghies that excludes pumping, then the series results are going to be as fair as if the boards weren't pumping and had a handicap that excluded pumping... For sure the races in the series when "pumping allowed handicap" boards will do well will be slightly different to the races where "pumping not allowed handicap" boards do well, but I don't think that's an insurmountable problem. Is it any different to Mirror singlahended and Mirror double handed?

So I think it has to be down to the club. If the members of Shingle-on-Sea sailing club want to allow their boards to pump and their dinghies not, then that's fine, and if Sandune-on-the-spit YC want no pumping at all that's fine too. What does become an issue is that if both clubs return board PY data to the RYA, because the returns for pumping allowed boards would need to be kept separate.

I still see RRS18 and the other RRS issues to be a rather greater problem. Graham, how do you manage this. Do your board sailors race under standard RRS? It looks a bit tricky for boards...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 4:30pm
We are required to give room at a mark exactly the same as you, in fact if we don't then the chances of being knocked in by a rig flip for example at the gybe are such that a wider course is wise.

The only two rules I remember varying but tbh the last championship I attended was in 1999 so things have changed considerably since then were mark touching and pumping. There are sailboard classes and clubs that ban pumping, the Kona being a prime example.

As to handicap racing not permitting pumping yet class racing does, what is the logic of that exactly, is this another snobby racist style exception that unless you sail in class you cannot act a certain way, I use the term 'racist' in a slightly ironic way, but so much of your bullsh*t does you no favours with these quaint idiosyncrasies. 


Edited by Woodburner - 29 Jun 15 at 4:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 4:32pm
Whilst I'm on I assume we 'handicap scum' are permitted one sheet per wave if planing or surfing is feasible?

Edited by Woodburner - 29 Jun 15 at 4:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 15 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

We are required to give room at a mark exactly the same as you,


Not exactly the same according to Appendix B.
The more significant differences I can readily spot are:
Rule 18
There is no three boat lengths zone, instead its all on when a board is about to change course to round a mark.
Rule 18.3 about tacking in the zone is deleted.
Rule 17, which is boats overtaking from leeward not allowed to luff above proper course is also deleted.
Rule 31. Touching a mark is deleted.

That seems just enough to create a little bit of confusion, rule 17 especially since that's one that provides a reasonable amount of confusion and ill feeling anyway.


Originally posted by Woodburner

As to handicap racing not permitting pumping yet class racing does, what is the logic of that exactly,


There are a very few classes that permit pumping in class racing, normally only when a special flag is flown in stronger wind conditions. Seems daft to me too, but it probably saves a lot of argument in classes, notably Olympic ones, where the SOBs are all going to pump like **** anyway. For most classes pumping is banned, although there are those, rumour has it notably one with a double barrelled name, where the ban isn't always effective.

Edited by JimC - 29 Jun 15 at 4:54pm
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