New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Safety SIs in Conflict with Rule 4 - No hearing
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Safety SIs in Conflict with Rule 4 - No hearing
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Safety SIs in Conflict with Rule 4 - No hearing
    Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 1:00am
Originally posted by piglet

Going back the OP, how does any of this work with R4?

The equivalent of rule 4 was inserted into rule 1.3 of the IYRU Yacht Racing rules (boats subject to directions of the race committee) in 1965.

Elvstrom explained the background thus:

This new rule now definitely states that it is the sole responsibility of the owner or crew whether they start or continue a race.  This is especially important now that racing fleets are so large.  It is impossible to be able to guarantee to rescue everybody and unless we have such a rule as this many race committees would not take the risk of starting big races in winds over Force 3.  This would be ridiculous.

Old rule 1.3 originally said that 'All yachts entered or racing shall be subject to the direction and control of the race committee', so as Elvstrom said the effect of the 'yacht's sole responsibility' provision was to remove or reduce the risk of liability of the race committee.

The express requirement to obey directions of the race committee was deleted some time around 1977, and Rule 4, as we know it was moved into Fundamental Rules in 1981.

Rule 4 is not a rule that a boat can break in an RRS sense (although I would like to think that it would hold up in a legal claim where a boat alleged that somebody else, like a race official or an organising authority was responsible for her racing in dangerous conditions).

Rule 4 is a rule of Part 1, which is a part of the RRS which, in accordance with rule 86.1 cannot be changed, by SI or National Prescriptions.

I think it would also be pretty difficult for a race committee to 'break' rule 4.

Even though some instruction or direction of a race committee might nibble away at the boat's responsibility, I would expect it would be held that the fundamental responsiblity assigned by rule 4 would not be taken away.

Even if it was found that an instruction of a race committee did 'break' rule 4, and was thus an improper action of the race committee, so what?

For a boat to get redress for an improper action of a race committee, it is also necessary( rule 62.1) that:
  • her score in a race or series be made significantly worse,
  • through no fault of her own.
Presumably the direction to cease racing envisaged in the OP SI would only be applied to tail-enders, so even if it was improper, a protest committee might very well find that the boat's score was not made significantly worse, and that there was no entitlement to redress.

Of course, if there was some sort of outrageous interference with leading boats, a protest committee would not hesitate to act.

It's still a lousy SI, and IMHO race committee's should be content to rely on the RYA guidance and rule 69.

Has this been helpful?



Edited by Brass - 03 Jun 15 at 1:00am
Back to Top
piglet View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Jan 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 12:52pm
"Has this been helpful?"
Thanks Brass, that's really good.
Your comment:
 
"Presumably the direction to cease racing envisaged in the OP SI would only be applied to tail-enders"
 
is an excellent point.
Can I throw in a WHAT-IF:
 
If there is nothing prescibed in the SI's and a boat blatantly ignores an instruction from a patrol boat to cease racing but then goes on to finish within the time limit.
What course of action is available to the RC?
 
I ask because this happened to me on a long distance race which was hit by a hail squall. A patrol boat told me race abandoned bo back and I complied as it seemed perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. When I got back I found that the race had not been abandoned and that as almost last man standing at the time I would have been a well placed finisher.
Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by piglet

"Has this been helpful?"
Thanks Brass, that's really good.
Your comment:
 
"Presumably the direction to cease racing envisaged in the OP SI would only be applied to tail-enders"
 
is an excellent point.
Can I throw in a WHAT-IF:
 
If there is nothing prescibed in the SI's and a boat blatantly ignores an instruction from a patrol boat to cease racing but then goes on to finish within the time limit.
What course of action is available to the RC?
 
I ask because this happened to me on a long distance race which was hit by a hail squall. A patrol boat told me race abandoned bo back and I complied as it seemed perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. When I got back I found that the race had not been abandoned and that as almost last man standing at the time I would have been a well placed finisher.

That's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.

I'd add another hypothetical this time.  Same race - there is a comply with the directions of the Patrol Boat SI this time.  The patrol boat orders the competitor to retire.  The competitor does not.  At the subsequent hearing the competitor uses Rule 4 as his defense.

It interests me because I race with my children in all weathers through the year.  I've had some delighted responses from patrol boats, and some shocked and alarmed ones too.

To anyone who says that wouldn't happen a Club mate of mine was told to retire at a Nats on the assumption that the crew was a child.  In fact she was 15 years older than he thought and an Army Nurse. 
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by piglet

"Has this been helpful?"
Thanks Brass, that's really good.
Your comment:
 
"Presumably the direction to cease racing envisaged in the OP SI would only be applied to tail-enders"
 
is an excellent point.
Can I throw in a WHAT-IF:
 
If there is nothing prescibed in the SI's and a boat blatantly ignores an instruction from a patrol boat to cease racing but then goes on to finish within the time limit.
What course of action is available to the RC?

Submit a report to the protest committee to initiate a rule 69 hearing in accordance with the RYA misconduct guidance.

Under the RYA guidance, the protest committee is going to look at, in particular:
  • whether the disobeying was deliberate; and
  • whether the instructions were reasonable.
The fact that the boat finished within the time limit may indicate that the instruction was not reasonable (and maybe the race committee should have considered this before they proceeded to submit their report to the protest committee).

I ask because this happened to me on a long distance race which was hit by a hail squall. A patrol boat told me race abandoned bo back and I complied as it seemed perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. When I got back I found that the race had not been abandoned and that as almost last man standing at the time I would have been a well placed finisher.

This example isn't about an 'instruction'.  It's about out-and-out misrepresentation and misleading a competitor.

Improper action by the race committee, significantly worsens the boat's score, through no fault of her own:  Entitled to redress.


Edited by Brass - 03 Jun 15 at 3:06pm
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by piglet

"Has this been helpful?"
Thanks Brass, that's really good.
Your comment:
 
"Presumably the direction to cease racing envisaged in the OP SI would only be applied to tail-enders"
 
is an excellent point.
Can I throw in a WHAT-IF:
 
If there is nothing prescibed in the SI's and a boat blatantly ignores an instruction from a patrol boat to cease racing but then goes on to finish within the time limit.
What course of action is available to the RC?
 
I ask because this happened to me on a long distance race which was hit by a hail squall. A patrol boat told me race abandoned bo back and I complied as it seemed perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. When I got back I found that the race had not been abandoned and that as almost last man standing at the time I would have been a well placed finisher.

That's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.

I'd add another hypothetical this time.  Same race - there is a comply with the directions of the Patrol Boat SI this time.  The patrol boat orders the competitor to retire.  The competitor does not.  At the subsequent hearing the competitor uses Rule 4 as his defense.

It interests me because I race with my children in all weathers through the year.  I've had some delighted responses from patrol boats, and some shocked and alarmed ones too.

To anyone who says that wouldn't happen a Club mate of mine was told to retire at a Nats on the assumption that the crew was a child.  In fact she was 15 years older than he thought and an Army Nurse. 
In this case it's not a rule 69 (although that could still be used) but a simple protest for breach of the SI, in which case the race committee needs to:
  • inform the boat of the race committee's intention to protest after the race within the time limit of rule 61.3 (rule 61.1( b )).
  • deliver a written protest to the protest committee in accordance with rule 61.2 within the time limit of rule 61.3.
  • send a representative and witnesses to the protest hearing to present evidence and argument in support of the protest.
In hearing such a protest, I would be inclined to infer a requirement of reasonableness for the instruction, and as discussed in the last post, I might tend to think that if the boat finished within the time limit, then the instruction might not have been reasonable.
Back to Top
blueboy View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 27 Aug 10
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by piglet

Are you sure he hadn't sailed away from the fleet specifically to pee?


Odd then to be waving it at me from 10-15 metres away. I felt no doubt it was a form of Hungarian body language.

I feel a sense of humour is essential, particularly at youth events and you were right not to make an issue of it.


Thank you.
Back to Top
piglet View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Jan 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 7:45pm
Brass, given the plain wording of R4, under what rule can a patrol boat give an instruction to cease racing if nothing in SI's?

If I found myself in the same situation again, I would be less inclined to comply and more inclined to take my chances in the beaks office after.
Back to Top
andymck View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 15 Dec 06
Location: Stamford
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 8:09pm
What about Club rules and bye laws.
Most notices of race make you a member of the organising club for the duration of the event. At our club we have to obey the instructions of the warden who has the right to close the water for safety reasons. If you break the club rules you can be asked to leave. Interestingly we do not have a rule regarding the safety boat cover, apart from that they are not rescue boats.

Andy
Andy Mck
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 9:30pm
We certainly have a rule where we can abandon racing and call every one in off the water, which is what I assume is what a warden can do, but as far as I know, all we can do is advise individuals. At some point, though, especially in winter, I would expect to be able to over rule someone who I suspected was too cold to make rational decisions.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 15 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by piglet

Brass, given the plain wording of R4, under what rule can a patrol boat give an instruction to cease racing if nothing in SI's?

If I found myself in the same situation again, I would be less inclined to comply and more inclined to take my chances in the beaks office after.

As I said in my first post in this thread

I think it would also be pretty difficult for a race committee to 'break' rule 4.

Even though some instruction or direction of a race committee might nibble away at the boat's responsibility, I would expect it would be held that the fundamental responsiblity assigned by rule 4 would not be taken away.

A Sailing Instruction is a rule (Definitions:  Rule).

Boats by participating in a race agree to be bound by the rules (rule 3)

If a protest committee concludes that a boat has broken a rule she shall be penalised (rule 64.1).

If you want the rationale or basis, I suggest you read the RYA Misconduct Guidance.

As I also said before, I would expect a protest committee to be inferring a requirement of reasonableness in the direction, so if the reason you advanced for disobeying was that the instruction was unreasonable, and you convinced the protest committee, you might be off the hook.

On the other hand you might strike a protest committee with the same authoritarian attitude as the race committee that wrote the SI.




Edited by Brass - 03 Jun 15 at 11:14pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy