J24 (Sail No. 4239) Dartmouth |
Laurent Giles 'Jolly Boat' Exeter |
29er GBR 074 Tynemouth |
List classes of boat for sale |
Yuletide yardstick - is a change on the way |
Post Reply | Page <12345 29> |
Author | ||
Null
Really should get out more Joined: 11 May 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 745 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Topic: Yuletide yardstick - is a change on the way Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 7:05pm |
|
You still don't get it do you. The RYA have not handicapped the D-zero yet. The number you see had a fit about at 1015 was/is the great lake handicap. Which is used at the winter handicap events. Events you have never even been to. We have already been told that they are harsh in their handicap allocation for new classes. They don't want them to win! The official py will be released at the dinghy show, but only if enough data has been submitted. Until then everyone else is loving their zero and racing off class supplied guidance or local adjustment!
|
||
Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 7:43pm | |
I'd think that by the time you start to realy get the hang of racing the boat, the number of returns will have reached a level where an EN might kick in. Of course, this handicap might even be a bit generous, because everyone is learning to sail the boat, so ful potential isn't yet met.
|
||
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
||
Null
Really should get out more Joined: 11 May 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 745 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 8:06pm | |
I think we are getting to that stage now Rupert. The boat is pretty simple and Dan is at hand to help train and advise. So the standard from what I have seen is improving very quickly. We as a class are now pushing our membership to push their clubs for returns. However if we do not get an EN this year we will issue a class number alongside suntouched which would almost certainly be 1035-1040. We are gathering our own return data so we can justify the number rather than what has historically happened and someone has plucked a number out of the air at the manufacturer depending on what agenda they want to follow. So if the RyA gives us an EN, then great. If it doesn't we will support the class members as best we can and work all year with the RYA to understand where we are in the process. From a new class perspective the whole system is a nightmare.
|
||
iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 8:14pm | |
No, like the guy writing the article, it's you lot who don't get it. It's why in part the silly game is dying, the way you do things is not the way things are these days.
We consumers want what we want now. Not next year, next year we'll want something else. We don't believe what newspapers tell us any more, build a silly boat out of plywood? Are you mental? That boat is an easy boat, if you know even half what you're doing you can jump in it and sail it to 95% of its potential, it isn't a stupid RS300, nor is it a Lousy Laser. What you say might actually be more true of the Aero, it is actually a more difficult boat to keep on track, but that is not the discussion, the discussion is because the silly manufacturer or his agent or whoever, let the handicap be set for them. Rather than suggesting and publishing a number. Even Mike Lyons has the marketing nouse to defy the t**ts at Great Lakes, you really believe a Blaze Fire at 1071, or a Halo at 1015 is an accident of chance? I'd been looking forward to having a crack at one of those Great Lakes shambles just to see what they're all about, but at 1024 for the EPS? Or 1015 for the Zero, I might as well piss my entry fee up a wall. f**k them is the answer and I'm pleased to note their numbers are dropping as well, I bet that's the Phantom lot spanking them. You lot are idiots for participating and taking their crap. We who don't like being dictated to by folk who are only interested in making money from the sport, will just do something else. Edited by iGRF - 28 Dec 14 at 8:16pm |
||
Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 9:22pm | |
Making money from the sport... somehow, if all someone wants to do is make money, they are in the wrong game. Much as the owners of Laser are.
|
||
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
||
iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 9:31pm | |
Probably a bit harsh, the 'making money from the sport' bit but certainly an agenda driven protectionist attitude, with money and somebody's livelihood at the root of the logic for wishing to stall a new product by fixing the handicap against it. As was probably the case with the Phantom, the 'wrong' people doing too much business at the expense of certain 'insiders'.
Can't think of any other reason than commercial competition, can you? |
||
Null
Really should get out more Joined: 11 May 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 745 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 9:49pm | |
Graeme you seem to forget, that I am a consumer. I make a purchasing decision much in the same way you do. But making a decision based on a handicap given by a some bloke guessing for a winter series is frankly mental. You have made a decision based not on any common sense or fact. It is not an RYA py. If a manufacturer sets one it has no reflection on what happens with the RYA anyway. So....if there is not enough data for the RYA to produce an EN the class are being proactive in providing clubs with a recommended py and data backing this up. Hopefully this will support zero owners in a sensible manner. Now I like the fact that the GL handicappers have the balls to adjust the numbers. However in the case of the new classes it is pure guess work based on someone looking at a boat and scratching their arse. We provided our thoughts around the number earlier in the year and were told I think we will give it the same as the aero, probably around 1015. Which is blatantly wrong. However!!! I repeat this is NOT an RYA number! As much as Rodney, rs, laser, cirus or whoever 'recommending' a py is. You may not like it Graeme but these are pretty much the facts! Simon and sailracer have been really helpful letting us know which clubs have provided automate returns and they agree that there is a fault with how new class PYs are set, however it's too late for any changes to have an effect on the current crop of new classes.
|
||
maxibuddah
Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 14 at 10:59pm | |
As I'm obviously a bit thick graeme, are you suggesting that someone somewhere briefed against phantom on commercial interests? To be honest I was in the class when the py plummeted and I never thought of it being anything other than the fact that the boat had got faster and therefore was adjusted accordingly. However you appear to be following an agender against certain classes you will never accept an answer that doesn't agree with your conspiracy. That said of course, you maybe correct, but of course you may not. I certainly hope that you are not and that the "system" is not being manipulated for commercial gains at the expense of more non-commercial classes. I also hope that I am not being too naive, but I hope that our sport is not being constructively worked over
Edited by maxibuddah - 28 Dec 14 at 11:00pm |
||
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
|
||
blaze720
Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Dec 14 at 12:23am | |
Hi GRF
I think you are a bit confused. I have no involvement or influence in handicap setting for any boats regardless of what you are suggesting now. Just think for one moment ... If I did have any sort of influence in that direction how on earth could the Icon EN end up at 969 for a start ? Throwing around wild allegations helps nobody or any rational argument for change even forgetting the basic fact that you are 100% wrong on this one ! If your EPS or any other boat you sail has a number you struggle with then 'persuasion'of this type will not change it, neither will tub thumping on Facebook or forums such as this. Im no fan of the current system for new class intoductions but only results collected over time will work at the moment. We can all cry 'foul' and get crabby but if you really want change get a boat along to any SJ event yourself... Spitting out the dummy on facebook as some are now doing etc has not worked so far so why will it work because you do it a second time ? Some newer classes seriously risk their futures by implying that further sales solely rely on getting a 'better' PN .... ? I'd worry as a prospective owner as handicap numbers can move both ways of course .... We both want change don't we? But nobody is going to help or sympathise if you keep throwing rocks at them .... and especially when you keep hitting many who might even agree with part of the argument ! I make it VERY plain on the Cirrus website that we do not even recommend any handicap numbers ...we only report on those currently in use at clubs and by other standalone organisations. Mike L. PS .... There must be a potential New Years resolution on this one ! ...Like just go sailing maybe ? |
||
iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 Dec 14 at 12:48am | |
I have been 'around' the commercial marine trade world at the sharp end for what? 40 years now? I could write a book about 'fixes' and anti competitive activities that have been rife over the years, stuff far more illegal than pissing about with some poor b**tards handicap to slow his sales down.
Conspiracy? I'd be surprised if there wasn't one, things would have to have changed quite dramatically for there not to be something grubby going on, it's just the way of the marine business, always has been always will be, try organising a boat show without the marine trade outfits say so.. and er yes I did and er yes we had to fight very dirty. This is very small beer. Which is why they have to get their act together and make sure folk like me can't point fingers and it have even the slightest basis in any factual connection between trades folk and handicappers, even those who just want to swell the ranks of their events by favouring particular classes over others. |
||
Post Reply | Page <12345 29> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |