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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Topic: PY Lag Time Posted: 12 Mar 14 at 8:45pm |
Looks to me like the PY system has had 4 years to catch up with at least 12 years of changes, so as Chris says, not surprising there have been some major alterations. Be interesting to see whether there are fewer returns this year for the Phantom, as people who sailed it because they were a bandit boat move on to the next bandit, or get fed up with coming where they aren't used to in races and start windsurfing instead.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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craiggo
Really should get out more Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 14 at 8:46pm |
Couldn't agree more Chris. Edited by craiggo - 12 Mar 14 at 9:29pm |
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Blue One
Far too distracted from work Joined: 09 Nov 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 317 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 14 at 9:04pm |
Thanks for explaining it again, Chris.
Edited by Blue One - 12 Mar 14 at 11:37pm |
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charlie1019
Posting king Joined: 28 Nov 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 173 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 Mar 14 at 11:43pm |
I think the new PY system is great, well done RYA for coming up with a system that is more responsive and takes the onus away from the clubs. I say takes the onus away from the clubs because, in my experience, most clubs under the old system were too scared of upsetting members by suggesting changed handicaps, whereas this system removes the local politics that sailing clubs fall foul of.
Many of us real sailors knew that there were some real bandit classes out there and none of the changes over the last few years surprise me. And no I don't have statistics to back up my thoughts, just many races that I have watched or competed in where similar standard sailors (championship winners) have been racing each other in different classes where it has been possible to note the relative boat performances. For example, back in 2006 I started, yes a slightly drunken post, called 'how do you sleep at night' where, while titled to get a reaction, the key point was how IMO classes such as the merlin and phantom had undergone key changes that were just not being picked up by the py system as clubs were effectively scared to change py numbers for fear of loosing sailors - possibly at the loss of other current or potential sailors. Back in 2006 I was rubbished for suggesting that the latest Winder Merlin's should be racing off 990 based on observations, guess what the 2014 merlin py is.... 990! At the same time I would have also suggested that the phantom handicap should have been near the 300 handicap around the 1005 mark... At this point I should add that I genuinely believe that class racing is the best racing there is but unfortunately due to the diverse skill levels and body sizes at most clubs, other than in the laser class, class racing is hard to find so py racing is the best option available. Yes the current system might upset a few people who have been handed easy py wins in recent years that probably didn't deserve them and now expect them, but I genuinely believe the new system makes it fairer for the masses and can better reflect class changes, so well done to the RYA.
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jeffers
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 7:40am |
Let us remember that the PY system is an average and when a class makes an evolutionary change that affect speed it takes time to filter down.
This is because to start with there are comparitively few of the new, go faster boats sailing at club level doing PY races and plenty of older, slower boats generating returns. The same thing happened to the Fireball many years ago when there was the 'wide bow' revolution. The PY is still dropping. To a certain extent the Merlin is also being hit pretty hard in recent years and (from what I have been told) there has not been much development certainly in hull form and contructionfor a good few years. The biggest problem for that Phantom was that for many year it was no possible to build a hull down to weight with many boats coming in several kilos over (we have one at Hunts that was around 15-20kgs overweight). Once they cracked that it and had various developments off the rigs (and an arms race by various sail makers) it had a massive effect on the speed and sailability of the boat. I do agree that the reason the PY has changed so dramatically over the last couple of years is because the volume of data is much increased and is skewed towards inland clubs (as they are the ones submitting the bulk of the data looking at the club list). Remember there is nothing to stop a club from using a different number, the RYA wants them to do this! Also get them to use the PYS site, it will throw up suggested numbers for them. |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 8:15am |
Years ago, I believe the PY sought to reflect the potential of each class, now it aims to measure the average performance of each class.
So comparing numbers from history is somewhat flawed, as the aims are different. If you want to change the PY of a class, the best thing to do is change the people who sail it. Phantom PY too low? You need to recruit some inexperience racers and get them putting some points on the board. |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 8:34am |
The PY has always sought to reflect the observed performance of the classes out on the water at the clubs. Its been an average right back to the 1950s. There are subtleties - its not an arithmetical mean of all results, but the fundamental position hasn't changed.
Whilst it might be very nice to have a handicap that reflected some theoretical maximum performance of each class, that's not what the PY does, and I don't really see how it could be done with a statistically based system - or indeed at all! Edited by JimC - 13 Mar 14 at 8:36am |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 8:34am |
I'm not aware that the aims have changed, but it may well be that people put in returns which reflected where they felt the class "ought" to be, rather than based on reality. I'd see this as a small issue compared to Chris's description of the differences, though.
I'd agree that the system would encourage classes to try and recruit people who are inexperienced racers, or at least inexperienced at the level the class needs to be sailed at. I've been racing for 40 years and have won a lot of things, but if I jumped in a Musto Skiff, I would bring down the PY. But isn't that what almost all decently run classes are doing anyway, for other reasons? And once you remove the circuit racers (who aren't in the figures except maybe in winter) & the very top and very bottom of the handicap results, I think the differences in fleet standard will be smaller than you imagine, especially as many handicap racing clubs seem to have 1, 2 or maybe 3 of each type of boat (barring Lasers), with larger fleets handicap racing being less common, and so having less influence on the returns. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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iGRF
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6496 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 9:28am |
Well all I can say is that when I first 'arrived' with any interest to the dinghy scene, the PY system although flawed offered what it claimed to offer, a broad based system where boats of similar speed had similar handicaps with the odd minor correction now and again.
That is not what we have now, in the haste to react to a couple of high profile inland classes, the parity that did exist has now gone and any confidence there used to be in the system gone with it. So nothing has happened to change the 'flaws' in the system, all there now are and I dare say the full incomprehension of it all hasn't sunk in everywhere yet as only the clubs active in the winter are even aware, that whatever may have been 'corrected' has been replaced by even more absurd incongruities, clearly the more so if you are unfortunate enough to race on the sea from a club that does not have the political will to deviate from the official RYA list, which is probably the majority of sea clubs. |
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AlanH
Groupie Joined: 17 Apr 10 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 84 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 10:10am |
As a fairly infrequent contributor to this forum, I'd like to say thanks to Chris for re iterating the improvements to the PY system. That system has indeed improved hugely over the last few years, since the brakes on changes have been taken off. Virtually all changes have been in the right direction, and I'd agree with him that most years from now on changes will often be more gradual. But those classes which add sail area etc will be caught up more quickly.
There are some people on this forum who unfortunately like to talk b**locks, loudly and frequently. To them I propose they look carefully at a ratio, of how often they post, over how often they sail. If the ratio is greater than 1, you have a problem. The solution of course is to sail more often and talk b**locks less. If you do that in a committed fashion, you will be amazed at how your sailing performance will improve, and you'll just watch as your perceived problems with your boat's PY just melt away. |
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