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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
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Quote Reply
Topic: When all boats retire. Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 9:51pm |
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I may have misjudged your club, and I didn't mean to suggest that you personally were not a prudent sailor. I'm not a safety fanatic, but once people start saying proudly that 'we have never abandoned a race for bad weather' you are on the slippery slope.
Edited by Brass - 10 Feb 14 at 9:51pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 10:02pm | |||
This might be a bit misleading in the context of a race with no finishers. The only circumstance where a race in which no boat finishes is not required to be abandoned by rule 35 is where the race committee has failed to include a time limit in the SI. The rules expect a time limit to be prescribed and the standard SI in Appendix L provide for this as a matter of course. I think there is a principle underlying rule 35 that if no boat finishes a race should be abandoned. So:
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gordon
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 11:15pm | |||
Brass - you reinforce my argument:
in a race with no time limit the race committee cannot abandon a race simply because there are no finishers. The race shall be scored and all boats will receive an appropriate score as per RRSA5. This may have some importance when a series is being scored under rule A9. There is nothing in the rules that obliges the race committee to set a time limit. If you read J2.1(7) this states "the time limit, if any, for finishing" (my underlining). Some organisers of offshore races, for instance, prefer not (rather than fail) to set a time limit. On the other hand, if one boat does finish the race may still be abandoned by the race committee (subjecy to the obligation to consider the consequences for all boats: rule 32.1) or the protest committee (after taking evidence from appropriate sources: rule 64.2) |
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Gordon
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Blue One
Far too distracted from work Joined: 09 Nov 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 317 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:35am | |||
Brass, the phrase " never had to abandon a race" is were the confusion arose. You took it to mean we had reckless sailors and were a reckless club. While in fact we are the exact opposite. All of our regular sailors have to run races and we( the sailors) would never put one of our own in the position were they would have to abandon a race.
No hard feelings. :) Edited by Blue One - 11 Feb 14 at 12:55am |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 8:28am | |||
At club level, there is certainly a difference between "racing being abandoned" and an official "race abandoned". One involves a decision by the race officer, the other a lot of cold sailors sitting looking out of the window and deciding that trying to sail in that gale/through that ice is a bad idea. Like Blue One's club, it is rare that a race would be abandoned if people were keen to sail, simply because if people are keen to sail, chances are it is sailable, therefore race abandonment usually takes the form of people getting back in their cars and drifting off home.
On this OP subject, though - 1 boat has to finish for the retireds of everyone else to count, otherwise the race is simply scored like it never was? If that boat subsequently retires, or is protested, the finish still counts, though. That right? |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 9:23am | |||
Believe so. Unless club SIs have altered the rules, as they're allowed to and IME often do. |
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redders
Groupie Joined: 30 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 41 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:47pm | |||
What would be your thoughts if it was a pursuit race? Is a boat that is capsized at the finish signal still racing?
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The older I get the faster I was!
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gordon
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:53pm | |||
Rupert,
1. There is a difference between a race being abandoned by the race committee and what you describe which is a race in which no competitors came to the starting area. If the race is scored (because of the SIs) then they would all be DNC 2. You are right - except that if there is no time limit Race committee cannot bandon the race for that reason. Redders, Unless the SIs say something different (common in team racing) a boat that has capsized is still racing. Even if she receives outside help she is still racing until she retires. |
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Gordon
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Feb 14 at 12:56pm | |||
Case 5 in the Case book specifically covers boats that are anchored, but includes this
So you can be anchored, aground, capsized or otherwise not progressing in the pursuit race and still be finished, depending on exactly what the finishing system that particular pursuit race is using. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 Feb 14 at 3:25am | |||
A really good race officer is one who, on a cold, wet and windy day flys Flag N at just the right moment so that everyone except the Club Lunatic cheers up, has a rum or two while complaining about the race committee being a bunch of wooses, and then goes home quite happy that they didn't go sailing on a miserable afternoon. That sure bets the RC laying a start line and course and nobody turning up. There really can't be a difference between your 'unofficial' situation and the 'official' or formal situation. Whether a race is formally abandoned affects number of races for a series, number of races for one or more discards, and any average points that boats may have been awarded, so you can't just let it drift.
If nobody goes out to sail, or if some do, but none sail the course in accordance with rule 28 and finish, then, if the SI prescribe a time limit, the Race Committee shall abandon the race (rule 35). If one boat finishes, the race committee shall score the race (rule 90.3( a )). Gordon says that if no boat finishes and the SI do NOT prescribe a time limit, then the race committee must score the race and may not abandon the race. I disagree with Gordon. The race committee may abandon a race any time after the starting signal for any reason directly affecting the fairness of the competition, and, if no boat finishes, may do so without considering the consequences for competitors (rule 32.1). In my opinion, by prescribing the number of races to make a series, and the number of races necessary for drops the race committee has decided what constitutes a fair structure of a competition and it is farcial to include in that structure a race that has no finishers. In these circumstance the race committee has a discretion, which, in my opinion it should exercise, to abandon the race with no finishers. The difference is, of course, in a club series scored under rule A9, that in a race with no finishers, :
Note: different if you are using a High Points system. And, yes, if you have a finisher that subsequently retires or is disqualified, the race still counts. |
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