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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Null

 
Really poor analogy Graeme, first of all a ford car is a passenger vehicle built to meet a families needs.  There are no racing regs designed to make it fair for everyone.

However if you decided to race your ford, in say a Ford Fiesta cup, you would almost certainly have a more complexed set of rules to work too, be governed by.


Well said. The Fiesta analogy was just stupid. Other successful equipment-intensive sports follow class rules just like dinghies do.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 1:13pm
And what about the one design classes which have multiple builders? If each could what it likes without any form of control from a governing body such as a CA the sport would quickly descend into chaos.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

My understanding from someone at NP, was that they had prototyped a new RS:X v2 - lighter, planes earlier and would have put a more modern iteration of their slalom race sail on it... The guy, who was no real fan of the RS:x said it was massive improvement that he believed had potential as a recreational club racer in the way the RS:x currently doesn't.

But the CA rejected it! I hope they enjoy Rio - it's their last one....

Why should a CA be willing to ensure that every piece of equipment in an entire class is made worthless and obsolete? What good does that do for the owners?

There are many hundreds of people out there who have put substantial amounts of money into classes that give them the enjoyment they want - who has the right to essentially take that activity and gear away from them?

The question is particularly important when time and time again we have seen that the idea "make it faster and they will come" has completely failed to live up to the hype, when it is obvious that higher speed does not equal higher popularity, and when there are many ways to promote the sport that are constructive rather than destructive (and IMHO effectively destroying thousands of boards or boats as competitive items IS immensely destructive).

The other absurdity is that the NP hoisted the RSX on the world at a time when it was pretty well known that it was far from the fastest bit of kit around. It's hypocritical to only decide later, after milking the cow, that speed actually mattered - especially when there is abundant evidence that it doesn't matter in terms of increasing numbers.


By the way I think the RSX is confirmed for 2020. The main competitor, the kites, has been getting ludicrously tiny fleets to some major regattas - I think there were something like 52 at the worlds. 



Edited by Chris 249 - 27 Sep 14 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I 'belonged' to the Original Windsurfer Class Association, ran the class mag, they threatened to sue me for using the word Windsurfer in the title so I shortened it to Windsurf which I later sold to Ocean Publications of Dinghy & Boardsailing fame.They refused every innovation, even to this day I believe they still have a one piece mast which makes shipping Internationally prohibitively expensive, but the convicts still have a local builder so it is still in existence down under and I believe it did eventually get the retracting centreboard and boom made of something other than wood, (years too late) although unlikely they went to carbon.

I belonged to and helped develop the Mistral Class Association which thrived all through the eighties on sponsorship money I managed to prevent falling into the hands of the RYA, by not going to the Olympics personally. (I would have had to give them ownership of the funding and they would tell me what I'd do to get access to it, like I'd take longer than two seconds considering that one.) When the class eventually did fall into the hands of 'them' it lasted a couple of years then failed. The Interntional class (now influenced and part funded by the IYRU) rejected the Mistral Prodigy which might have kept them in the Olympic ball game, but by then politics were not favouring the new corporate owners and they didn't know how the Olympic "lobbying" game was played.
I also belonged to the UKBSA for many years, mainly to keep my sail no, but I haven't done one of their championships since my daughter and I went in 1999 and we both won our separate classes, funnily enough I came across the trophies this very day, my Mrs is chucking them out along with dozens of others, we're moving house.

The problem is that your examples disprove your point.
 
The (Original) Windsurfer Class has arguably changed less than any other international board class (bar maybe the short-lived Wayler?) and it has also survived far longer than any other international class. It is the only one of the early classes that is still around, and with the revival of the Italian fleet it is growing once more. No other class has shown the durability of the class that has changed less than just about any other.

The Mistral class had what, half a dozen changes during which just about the entire kit was changed each time, and it's either dead or class to it (the class may survive in Asia in very small and dwindling numbers). There are several other board classes that tried to update themselves dramatically (Alpha, Windsurfer Offshore, Sailboards Germany IIRC, etc) and they all died.

So the truth is that the idea of updating classes by throwing away all the existing kit has NOT been shown to work well - quite the opposite.

If you want to be able to change kit regularly within loose rules, go for it - sail a Moth, A Class, B Class, C Class, R Class, "open" 18, 12 Foot Skiff or similar class. Or, if you want tighter rules, sail a Merlin, N12, F18, etc. The options are there - in fact sailing, with its PY system and other rules, probably allows you MORE choice of kit than just about any other sport with equipment of remotely comparable cost.

If you tried to play serious golf with clubs twice as long and half as heavy as others, you would not be allowed - but you can do that in sailing. If you turned up to a serious bicycle race with custom kit that was not built by an approved manufacturer, that had been modified at home and had not been approved by a boffin you would get your marching orders - but you can use gear like that in sailing.

The fact is that sailing allows MORE freedom than many other sports when it comes to kit - but most of us prefer to compete using the same sort of kit as those we are racing against. I don't want some dill to tell me that my beloved kit has to be thrown away because it's not trendy. I also don't want to win just because I spend more on getting new kit.

Many of us WANT to use the same gear as others - you seem to have some issue with allowing other people the freedom to decide that they want. 




Edited by Chris 249 - 27 Sep 14 at 1:49pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Null



But you would be happy to a manufacturer to make your chosen class be out of date two weeks after purchase, by changing the rule set without consulting the membership.  Good class associations work alongside the builders, in a partnership.  In most cases class associations are non profit organisations that look after the administration of the class so builders can actually make a profit without worrying about rule sets, running championships etc.


So what would the difference be, between what I'm happy to happen and say suddenly introducing a small rig and a much nicer colour to a new class barely even established? If the class had happened to be consulted on that one, had it already been established, like say the Phantom class, I wonder how the vote would go?

It's not about the freedom of folk to do or sail what they want, it's about those already doing it making certain nothing improves that might force them to upgrade.

I take the point with development classes and dare say the Merlin has its appeal as amply demonstrated by their numbers, I'm sure, had I been around a bit earlier in my or the moths lifespan that would have held some attraction, but sadly I'm on the downslope in the motor skills department so have to acknowledge my limitations.

However, I reserve the right to my view in all this, and point out again because once more it seems to be needed, I'm not forcing any opinion on you, y'all have it the way you like it, it is however far from perfect and if on a friday night after the pub folk choose to insult or question the jolly old perfection of my character, then retaliation will ensue, Auntie Stella sees to that.

What do you want here? An admission an opinion is wrong (not going to happen), to refrain from questioning the status quo? Then where would you be? No argument, no discussion = the very boredom I was being accused of last time.

Edited by iGRF - 27 Sep 14 at 4:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 3:11pm
It's great we've all got different opinions, its not great that people get too wound up when the read an opinion that conflicts with their own, I'm sure we've all been in that position!
In my opinion, established classes don't have the rate of development that GRF would like for a number of reasons, these are-
1) most people simply don't have the money to keep changing their boat in order to stay competitive,
2) a lot of people do, in fact, enjoy taking care of their boat and putting the effort into maintaing it, in order to get the best performance from their boat,
3) people can become attached/fond of their boats.

In my opinion, what's missing is a less extreme singlehanded development class. Its been mentioned before, that a set of rules which could incorporate the Blaze, Phantom, RS300, and some one-off development boats could offer some interesting racing and could possibly satisfy GRF's requirements for a modern progressive singlehander.


Edited by mongrel - 27 Sep 14 at 3:13pm
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by mongrel


DIV]
In my opinion, what's missing is a less extreme singlehanded development class. Its been mentioned before, that a set of rules which could incorporate the Blaze, Phantom, RS300, and some one-off development boats could offer some interesting racing and could possibly satisfy GRF's requirements for a modern progressive singlehander.


Why are you bothered about what he requires ? There are plenty of great boats out there already. Why complicate matters further.

If you like one class - sail it against others (at events) or sail it in handicap races ?

Faffing about using some existing classes will just dilute established classes further and probably end up with worse boats.

The designers/manufacturers are not idiots and so the majority of the boats put there do their thing very well.

There are already events where you can sail your 300 against a Phantom, Blaze etc etc - every weekend there are handicap races throughout the country.

This thread has gone haywire - GRF moaning AGAIN !

Why do I even read it ?





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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by rich96



Why do I even read it ?






So you can moan about me Moaning commenting in a helpful and positive way ?

However I will agree this thread has drifted way off the topic of RS and their Aero's, perhaps you need to start one titled 'why we love the class system' and explain it to me.. and I can moan all over that.

Edited by iGRF - 27 Sep 14 at 5:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 9:06pm
Yes, its also not Rspeculation anymore either. time for an RS aero thread and lets try and keep boat comments to their own threads pleeeeeease.
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