New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Which Clubs use  modified PY numbers
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Which Clubs use modified PY numbers

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6341
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 13 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Jim, if you adjust for some (where you have the evidence) but boats which were having close racing with the ones you have adjusted (maybe against the run of other results) don't have the numbers to warrent a change, what do you do?

Across every class I've ever looked at the finish times in a typical race are in the order of a twenty percent spread, usually more. So if the fleets were having a close race before they will be afterwards if there's a two percent change in relative handicap. No doubt the odd place or two will swap round, but, frankly, who's to tell which way round is correct? The sailors at the front of the fleet will still be at the front, and the sailors who still have plenty of scope for improving will still be in much the same place in the fleet too.

Edited by JimC - 02 Sep 13 at 11:56pm
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2957
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 8:26am
Originally posted by AlexM

I enter all the data in for Leigh and Lowton, which we've been doing for two years (ish)
I think it has definitely helped that it isn't people from the club amending the numbers but the website which has the backing from the RYA. Stamp of approval

Alex
 
I think that's true, you take it as a given and get on with it.
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3016
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 9:55am
We do at Hunts for the older Merlins we have. The Phantom is now about where it needs to be although I can still see this getting faster over the next couple of years or so so we will probably track it.

Not sure what our figures are from the RYA site as I have no access to it.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
transient View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 21 Aug 12
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 715
Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 10:53am
Originally posted by RS400atC

HISC do.
Not sure how they are worked out though.



They do a calculation all of their own compensating for the tide. I believe Lancing do an adjustment for tide as well although they only use it for certain races.....Tidal flow being a reasonably predictable factor, it makes sense to try and tackle it. Well done to them for giving it a go, not sure if they got it right though?
Back to Top
GybeFunny View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 27 Oct 09
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 364
Post Options Post Options   Quote GybeFunny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 12:28pm
Chipstead SC make our own amendments, they are on page 30 of our programme here:
We are a small lake and thats why things like Graduates and Solos perform very well on our type of sailing.

We follow the RYA guidance and crunch the numbers to see what the yardsticks should be and these are generally accepted, it is pretty hard to argue against the maths. However we are primarily a fleet racing club so any handicap racing tends to take less importance than the fleet racing. The best sailors are far more keen on beating another boat of their class than winning on some spreadsheet.

Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8673
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

Jim, if you adjust for some (where you have the evidence) but boats which were having close racing with the ones you have adjusted (maybe against the run of other results) don't have the numbers to warrent a change, what do you do?

Across every class I've ever looked at the finish times in a typical race are in the order of a twenty percent spread, usually more. So if the fleets were having a close race before they will be afterwards if there's a two percent change in relative handicap. No doubt the odd place or two will swap round, but, frankly, who's to tell which way round is correct? The sailors at the front of the fleet will still be at the front, and the sailors who still have plenty of scope for improving will still be in much the same place in the fleet too.


I'm not trying to compare the 20% spread, though. I'm comparing helms who are very close on ability and if sailing the same class will swap positions regularly. If that is happening within the handicap results, and one of the classes is moved reletive to the other, then the balance is destroyed, and at that point 2% is a huge amount. I suppose the answer would be to link the 2 classes on handicap, so the smaller class would change to stay with the numerically bigger one, despite not having enough ruturns of its own. But then you move away from pure numbers.

I'm also still not convinced that most clubs have enough returns not to have personal handicapping coming into play with the changes.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
tgruitt View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2479
Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 1:09pm
I see the RYA are asking for returns to be made but I don't see what information they gain by sending back the form? I sail at a club that doesn't adjust locally (although should do) and all the RYA form asks for are the number of each class and the PY (standard). How do they gain any useful data from this as it doesn't include race results?
Needs to sail more...
Back to Top
marke View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 16 Jun 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 209
Post Options Post Options   Quote marke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 2:04pm
Tom

The MUCH preferred option is that your club submits its data into the online PYS system.  If you use Sailwave, HAL, or a spreadsheet to do the handicap calculations then this is very easy to do - much easier than filling in the excel form and it gives us raw data to use.

I haven't looked at the excel form this year - but last year it asked for the club to provide for each class - the number of individual competitors for that class (i.e. different helms), the number of appearances (i.e. how many races x boats), the PY used at your club, AND the calculated PY based on the elapsed time or the handicappers estimate of what the PY should be.  Again if you use Sailwave, Hal, or a homegrown spreadsheet it should be easy to do (but not as easy as just submitting to the PYS in the first place) - if your results are calculated on the back of fag packet then its not so easy Wink

The two datasets are analysed jointly and separately by the RYA.

Last year for the first time the PYS data was bigger than the excel return.  The long term ambition should be for the PYS to take over completely as the mechanism for recording performance which can then be used both for a club's local analysis and the national analysis.

Please try to encourage whoever drew the short straw at your club to do the PY return via the PYS - give them my email if they have any questions.

Mark
Back to Top
tgruitt View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2479
Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 2:25pm
OK, they use sailwave. I will get the info sent, do you just email them the sailwave docs? I don't think anyone does a return, so I might have to step up to the mark here....
Needs to sail more...
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2957
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 13 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by marke

Tom

The MUCH preferred option is that your club submits its data into the online PYS system.  If you use Sailwave, HAL, or a spreadsheet to do the handicap calculations then this is very easy to do - much easier than filling in the excel form and it gives us raw data to use.

I haven't looked at the excel form this year - but last year it asked for the club to provide for each class - the number of individual competitors for that class (i.e. different helms), the number of appearances (i.e. how many races x boats), the PY used at your club, AND the calculated PY based on the elapsed time or the handicappers estimate of what the PY should be.  Again if you use Sailwave, Hal, or a homegrown spreadsheet it should be easy to do (but not as easy as just submitting to the PYS in the first place) - if your results are calculated on the back of fag packet then its not so easy Wink

The two datasets are analysed jointly and separately by the RYA.

Last year for the first time the PYS data was bigger than the excel return.  The long term ambition should be for the PYS to take over completely as the mechanism for recording performance which can then be used both for a club's local analysis and the national analysis.

Please try to encourage whoever drew the short straw at your club to do the PY return via the PYS - give them my email if they have any questions.

Mark
But how is it meaningful to submit PY data for a class at a club, without relating it to all the other PY's in that club.
HISC for instance will send you a calclated number of say 920 for the RS400, which sounds like it performs well. But as everything it races against is also on a reduced number, it actually tells you very little.
 
I predict that the Merlin and RS400 will have similar changes in the spring as they did this year, because the data will be munged with the same inputs from clubs who rebase things.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy