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Handicaps and how much difference they make...

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Handicaps and how much difference they make...
    Posted: 23 Aug 13 at 4:50pm
I was just reviewing handicaps for an oldish Merlin at our club, and comparing it against results in our premiere series.

This season, rather unfairly, we've given him the default RYA handicap of 995, and he came 16th from 40 something.

So I looked at the Merlin class recommended handicaps (which I'm not altogether comfortable with as they are offsets against current PY) and they suggested plus 20 for that age boat, so currently 1015, but when they first published them about 1040 for the same boat! Then I looked at my db of historical handicaps, and worked out that when the boat was new it had a PY equivalent to about 1040.

So I did some sums, and,if I gave him 1030 his series position was unchanged, and if 1040 then he moved up one place... Never ceases to amaze me how little difference handicaps make.


Edited by JimC - 23 Aug 13 at 4:51pm
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 13 at 4:53pm
were there any sizeable variations in individual races though Jim?  Some club sailors don't give a fig for series results- they are usually won by the best sailor from those elite band of men and women who seem to spend a lot of time at the club!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 13 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

were there any sizeable variations in individual races though Jim?  Some club sailors don't give a fig for series results- they are usually won by the best sailor from those elite band of men and women who seem to spend a lot of time at the club!!!



I was going to make pretty much the same comment. The number of attendances will have a bigger impact on position in a club series. 
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Oli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 13 at 9:41am
totally agree jim, we are quite aggressive with our handicap changes (every series) and we have succeeded in eliminating most bandit boats. series winners are still the best sailors in the fleet, even though they may have moaned when their handicap was changed they still win.  i like to think it has encouraged them along a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 13 at 11:26am
As I've said before:

This is primarily a racing forum where best rope, sail shape, hull finish, lee bowing?, trim etc etc etc are discussed in minute detail so that every last ounce of speed can be harnessed.........

.......Why do some suggest that 40 second advantage in an average handicap race is unimportant????? 

If someone plans or aspires to do well then 40 seconds is well worth having.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 13 at 12:09pm
its worth having race by race but over a series those that consistently perform well will come through to win, so 40 seconds in a series doesn't have a huge affect on fleet position, just the overall corrected time within the fleet.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 13 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by slop_idol

its worth having race by race but over a series those that consistently perform well will come through to win, so 40 seconds in a series doesn't have a huge affect on fleet position, just the overall corrected time within the fleet.


No it doesn't have a huge effect on a club series because there is  usually such a big difference between the scores. That difference is not caused by the handicap it is caused by the number of attendances.


If folk don't think 40 seconds in a race is worth having........ Confused

Edited by transient - 24 Aug 13 at 12:24pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 13 at 7:08pm
Well some of our races are decided by fractions of a second and five or six seconds makes a big difference.

The Merlin is probably our biggest Bandit and down the lake the Miracles can't be beaten.

Then last wednesday I'm racing my fellow Hythe clubmate Laser v EPS he often beats me over the water in that close confinement, yet Wednesday he ran into fish murderer lines had to stop, unhitch, pull up his plate, drifted downwind and never recovered as I continued to pull clear, it meant nothing, he still beat me by minutes with that ludicrous new Laser handicap gerrymandered as it is by the Sailjuice series.

The problem you er 'experts' with the handicap system have, because you never established a null point around something like the Laser, which remained unchanged, the system is now so screwed up, you don't know where you are.

You should have established a standard 1000 boat around which others move, you have nothing but chaos theory applying with the system being manipulated for the benefit of big inland water and those who would wish to swell their numbers by creating an artificial benefit for the Laser.

It's f**ked.

Edited by iGRF - 24 Aug 13 at 7:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 13 at 10:07pm
And also the number of times we go on about data quality and quantity when it comes to PY.....I've had 4 10 second difference on 1st/2nd with the same 400 in either the 2000 or 300 this year.  So any change would make a lot of difference (every race in the sample 60-80 minutes).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 13 at 11:50am
Hi,

Back to the original post re merlin handicaps:-

The original PY of 1040 was based on the boat/mast.sails etc at that date.
Many if the older Merlins will have updated rig (Carbon mast/boom), changed to the larger spinnaker and twin pole system, as well as improvements to the sails and sail controls.

If you have enough data, try using both the 1015 and the 1040 and see what happens.


Colin
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