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skipper 12 weight, and other suggestions? |
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gjs
Newbie Joined: 05 Jun 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
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Topic: skipper 12 weight, and other suggestions? Posted: 08 Jun 13 at 12:38am |
Thank you all for your replies.
A Heron does sound like a good option. I was leaning towards one of these before and had a good chat with the chap on the Heron stand at the Dinghy Show in February and from that chat it seemed suitable, but wondered if they would be too light. I do see a few for sale, but only been seeing wooden ones lately which I don't want to get as don't have the time for the upkeep. But from the comments posted here, I reckon a GRP one could be ideal. One of the other options I was considering was a Comet - Duo, Zero or Versa. Comet make a lot of mention about being good to sail single handed as well as double handing, and they looked quite nice at the Dinghy show too. The trouble is that they don't seem to come up for sale much, but if anyone has any thoughts on the Comets they would be welcome. One thing I'm not sure about is if sailed single handed, whether they mean sailing with just the main or still main+jib. Another boat I came across was the Foxer. These look ideal - good sized 'sit-in' single hander. Again, they do not come up for sale (in the places I'm looking - apolloduck, ebay, boatsandoutboards and general web search), and when I have seen them they are quite expensive. One of the local clubs were getting rid of their Enterprise fleet at the end of last season and were selling them dirt cheap and for that reason I was tempted, but I kept hearing/reading that they are quite tippy - a lot of sail for the size of the boat, so that put me off. I did have a go at single handing the GP14 last year, which was okay although certainly a lot more to do when tacking/gybing. The wind was fairly calm then and I reckon it would have been quite a handful if gusty! As that was still a lot of work, my 'ideal' would be either a big enough single hander with high boom, or a boat that sails well with just the main which I can then put the jib up when I have crew (not very often). I'm not sure the latter boat exists. If it doesn't, is there a boat (perhaps the Heron?) that wont lose too much performance when on just one sail? Does the Gull have a much lower boom than the Heron? Looking at an advert of one for sale, the boom looks high compared to say, a Solo, but that may just be camera angles? Or does the design make it just not suitable for a beginner anyway? I was reading about the boat on the class association website and the Mark I/II sounded interesting as the mast could be moved forward for jib less single handed sailing. This sounds like a great concept but don't know of it being on any other boat. But please correct me if that isn't actually a good thing in reality!
Thanks again everyone for your input. Regards, Greg Edited by gjs - 08 Jun 13 at 12:42am |
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gjs
Newbie Joined: 05 Jun 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 Jun 13 at 11:59pm |
Does anyone have any thoughts on the boom height of the Gull compared to the Heron and perhaps Solo? Does the Gull have a low boom, or is it that the Heron has a very high boom but the Gull's is low relative to the Heron?
I think that the Heron or Gull would be an ideal good choice - I'm wondering if the Gull would be better as it is heavier at 88kg? Would that weight be okay single handing? It is still well down on the weight of a GP14. Or does the Heron's lower weight of 64kg get balanced off by better stability? My current preference is the Heron, as from the comments here and what I've picked up, they seem to be very stable and have a high boom which is what immediately struck me when I came across their stand at the Dinghy Show. I cant find any GRP Heron's for sale but am seeing some Gulls which is making me wonder if I should lean towards one of those. But if the boom on the Gull is too low, it isn't very stable or the Heron weight isn't ideal, I'll hold out for a Heron. Are the booms low on the Solos? Some pictures I've looked at suggest it has a reasonable amount of height but others they look very low. I thought I'd mention the Solo as I think there is one at the club so I might be able to see it on Sunday to use as a bit of a reference point for boom height, and I see loads of those for sale so wonder if they could be an option. Thanks again. Greg n.b. For what its worth, I have found weights for the Skipper 12 & 14 - Skipper 12 = 65kg and Skipper 14 = 84kg, although I cant confirm as to the accuracy of those. But as Rupert mentioned it wont bear much resemblance to the boats weight now, but at least I know it wouldn't be any less than those! |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 8:46am |
The Gull and Heron are probably much of a muchness boom height wise, the Solo's is a fair bit lower. I don't believe anyone has ever called a Gull tippy. Hard to believe that the Heron is that much lighter than the Gull unless something has changed radically since I was familiar with both 30 years ago.
As for the right weight for singlehanding, that depends entirely on the surface where you launch: if you have to pull your boat across soft sand or shingle or up a steep ramp then you'll want a *lot* less weight than if you have a shallow paved surface... |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 10:50am |
The Gull is probably tippier than the Heron, but it is all relative! The more boxy shape of the Heron will give more initial stability, at any rate, so will wobble less when you climb aboard. Once sailing, not sure they will be much different.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 11:13am |
And an Isle of Wight Ferry is probably tippier than a Nimitz class aircraft carrier, but the difference is not normally of practical interest... |
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kfz
Groupie Joined: 02 Nov 10 Location: UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 96 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 12:25pm |
Another factor that few have mentioned, when comparing is speed. You'll find the smaller Heron/Gull/Mirror Boats are much slower than than the bigger GP/Ent size boats. If your cruising in a tideway (and why wouldnt you if your a cruiser) then the extra power is handy.
Kev
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 5:13pm |
In my view, a little 12ft boat like a Heron is going to be really quite horrible for a beginner who is on the heavy side, sailing single handed.
When I was a teenager, we frequently sailed Ents, GP's and similar singlehanded up to a force 4 or so, which is when beginners tend to want to go sailing. Too small a boat will be dog slow and unresponsive, I would particularly avoid anything where the helm can't easily keep well forwards. In that respect olde worlde transom sheeting was an advantage. I'd also advise buying something that has a decent secondhand market so you can move on when your taste in boats develops. Skippers were not raced much, so many of them never had the sails replaced. Also the sails were 'basic' even by the standards of the time. A boat like a Ent will probably have better, more controllable sails, and good used sails will be available. A lot depends on budget, but remember a decent boat bought for £2k that you can later resell for £1750 may be better value than a £500 bargain. |
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gjs
Newbie Joined: 05 Jun 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Jun 13 at 10:36pm |
Thanks for the replies - plenty of really useful comments which I appreciate.
I'm now thinking that the Enterprise makes a lot of sense. There seems to be far more of those for sale than the others, and seem to be plenty of bits and pieces for sale on the second hand market - sails, masts etc. They're not as heavy as the GP14 and I reckon I could take it up a slipway okay on my own. I've pulled the GP14 up on my but it wasn't a lot of fun! I reckon the Enterprise will be fine though. I dismissed the Enterprise as the first thing people would say about them is they are very tippy as they have a lot of sail power for the size of the boat, which put me off. But I guess I could look out for some cruising sails. I would like a rear sheeted boat, not just because that's how I learnt, but because that gives more room for crew/passengers, if I should manage to get some. At the moment, I've just been sailing on our local club lake, which is small but tricky with very abruptly shifting channels of wind/gusts. However, as soon as I get my own boat I want to start cruising, that is, once I figure out how I go about doing that. With the Enterprise, I see them available in wood, FRP & GRP. I read something a while ago about the differences between FRP & GRP. I understand that FRP is lighter but dents more easily, but GRP is more solid but heavier and takes on water more. Is that about right? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that though. Overall though, is one better than the other for the Enterprise or all sailing dinghies in general? I was thinking about the Skipper as seeing some for sale at almost give away money, so the thought process there was I could get a boat dirt cheap to fill the gap between now and getting the right boat, and I wouldn't lose a lot if that wasn't suitable or if it leaked more than a colander! Thanks again, this is all a great help. Regards, Greg |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6648 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 13 at 8:28am |
FRP and GRP are used inconsistently and confusingly throughout the industry and I fear are terms of limited utility because of that.
FRP is an acronym for Fibre Reinforced Plastic, GRP for Glass reinfoirced plastic, and of course the glass is a fibre. Fibres other than glass are only really likely to be fouund on more exotic craft, and in any case this isn't the crucial distinction. The crucial part relates to how thick the hull skin is and what sort of fibres are being used, and there are pros and cons to all construction. Basically there's a sort of gradation from the strongest, lightest and most expensive to the weakest, heaviest and cheapest. In the sorts of boats you are interested in you won't see the really top end construction, which is a sandwich of a thin layer or carbon fibre soaked in epoxy resin, a thick layer of foam, maybe even 8 mm or 10mm, then another layer of carbon fibre soaked in epoxy. This is the best way of building boats, and boy do you pay for it. Not necessary in most cruising boats. Next stage down is much the same, but with cheaper fibres soaked in the epoxy resin, then we come onto skins of woven glass fibres soalked in polyester resin. These foam cored constructions do have the big disadvantage that they can dent if bashed. Naturally how easily they dent depends on how thick the outside skins are and how light the foam in the middle is, but they all do it to a greater or lesser extent. Some people use the term FRP to describe foam cored boats, some use the term foam sandwich, and no-one using the term can be guaranteed to use it right. FRP can legitimately be used to describe the cheapest and nastiest forms of grp construction... Sandwich construction has really only reached the less racey classes in the last ten or fifteen years, although the exotica have been using it since the mid 70s. About on a level with this is really high quality plywood construction. When new its at least as good as the polyester foam sandwich, but of course as we all know wood is biodegradable and needs committed maintenance. If you get on top of wood maintenance and keep on top of it the workload is much less than people tell you, especially if you can keep the boat under cover out of frost over the winter, but if its allowed to slide it can go downhill quickly. Also after about 30 to 40 years the glues used to build wooden boats can get brittle and start to fail, and you end up with leaking joints that are really difficult to fix unless you take the whole thing apart and glue her back together again. This gets called a major restoration, and it rarely costs you much more than 10 times what the boat is worth! OK, next stage down is when it really gets difficult to tell what you are looking for. This includes all traditional GRP boats, and its a grade, not real divisions. All GRP boats have a thickish layer of a coloured material without fibres on the outside, called gel coat, which is there to protect the rest from water and look pretty, but has little structural benefit. Within that I like to divide things into roughly two groups, and you can get an idea of which is which by looking at the inside surface if you can see it through hatches or bits not covered with deck moulding. The better GRP craft are actually constructed with a sort of sandwich. There's a layer of fibres on the outside, then a layer of material called coremat, which is still glass fibres, but mixed with a special filler, then another layer of fibres, but its all soaked in polyester resin. Often the fibres, which you can usually see in the resin on the inner skin, will be at least partially woven cloth. The more woven cloth the better really because it tells you the original builder was spending money on materials. Boats built like this can be quite acceptable, at least in the heavier classes. It can suffer a bit when it gets really light. At the bottom of the range you have craft that are just made from a single thick layer of random fibres - chopped strands. There wll be almost no sign of any care in arranging the cloth on the inside. The worst of these back in the 60s and 70s were pretty appalling, and by now will IMHO be best avoided. Most likely all the joints will have cracked oopen and the craft will leak like a sieve into the buoyancy tanks and all but sink if you capsize it and there's no practical way of fixing it beyond carefully breaking all the joints, reducing it into its original mouldings, and gluing them all back together again. As you've probably gathered its pretty difficult to tell apart the good and the bad non sandwich boats. Your best bet is to look for a builder's plate and see what sort of reputation that builder has in the class. You'll also have gathered, with such a gradation of construction methods and lifespans, that if something is at a giveaway price then its most likely priced at exactly what its worth. Sadly the opposite is not true, and an expensive boat may just have a wildly optimistic owner... There also such things as boats you won't be able to give away at any price... For example, although Jack Holt was a really nice chap and a great and very influential designer, I wouldn't have a glass fibre Enterprise or Solo built by his company in the 60s and 70s if you paid me... The Skippers, I fear, also tend towards that category. All sounds rather depressing, but maybe I've overdone things in this essay. And lets face it, if you're sailing on a reservoir with good safety cover and the damn thing disintegrates then so damn what. If you're cruising through the Menai straits with your wife and kids and not another boat visible then its a different matter... Edited by JimC - 15 Jun 13 at 8:29am |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Jun 13 at 11:46am |
The problem with the early GRP Enterprises is that, in order to build them down to weight by the construction methods Jim describes above (the simple layers of strands with the gelcoat) the hulls were built very thinly. I've had to do repairs on some over the years, and there is almost nothing there. This means they flex badly, and by now will be cracking up and pretty much worthless.
Oddly, boats can be worth les than nothing, as a trailer can sell for more if there isn't a boat sat on it! If you are in the market for an old clunker to do up, can be a good way of getting a free boat. Also, if the local tip is aminable to taking old boats, a good way of getting a bargain trailer. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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