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    Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 2:38pm
And I thought I was barking!
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 05 at 7:00am
Yep, the Moth is the most advanced dinghy/skiff.
Yep, it's gone very, very fast.
Yep, there's more to come.
But is it REALLY 15% faster than a 49er if you look at the broad range of conditions? Simon's comments were about one regatta, I think you'll find.
 
I could go into detail about the Brass Monkey etc (the fact that the foilers were struggling to keep with Cherubs etc despite being sailed by the world champ and (IIRC) the 29er worlds runner-up, etc). I know it didn't give a balanced view of the incredible performance of these wonderful boats, but neither does your account of their speed.

I was not meaning to attack the foilers, but merely to comment on the hype.

Re the sliding ballast concept. It requires fairly fast work on the seat but (more importantly) fast and fairly powerful work on the mainsheet and makes tacking difficult. Most sailors get totally intimidated by Canoes. Put the average FD/Laser sailor in one and they capsize repeatedly. And while I love Canoes, they still go only about as fast as a Hobie 14.

Given the problems and balancing them with the thrill and speed, I think a disabled sailor is much better off in something like a Windrider tri.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Doug Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 05 at 10:50pm
Chris, the truth is that the Moth is the most advanced singlehanded dinghy in existence.The racing against the A class cats was done over five or 6 races with Rohan sailing against a good A class fleet and the story is on his website. The "15% faster than a 49'er" was (IIRC-ha!) a direct quote of Simon Payne.
I finally found out about the Brass Monkey-Rohan sailing a 5 year old converti-boat and a newcomer to foiling sailing the other Moth-both had breakdowns. There are many more instances of the Moth showing it's speed against cats, 49'er's and I14's then there are "Brass Monkey" type cases.
The fact is that monofoiling as a sailing discipline is new and not-by any stretch of the imagination-a mature technology. In fact. monofoiling technology is in it's infancy and even without any record of competition against other boats is an awesome, incredible, revolutionary development whose potential has not even begun to be realized.
==============
Chris, as an experienced IC and other sailor what is your reaction to the subject of this thread?

Edited by Doug Lord
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 05 at 11:20am
"And when you factor in results like the 11' Moth foiler beating A class cats in a series of races and being 15% faster than a 49er you are talking about a coming revolution in dinghy(and keelboat!) performance. But thats another story."

Really? What series of races was that? There are hints it may have been at Black Rock but there's nothing on the website I can find. Can you please provide us with more information? Which As are we talking about?

And are you talking about Colin Newman's analysis of Simon Payne's performance at Abersoch Dinghy Week (if I have my regatta right) when you say the Moth is 15% faster than a 49er?

If so, shouldn't you (in the name of truth) say that SOME analysis of ONE regatta said that in THOSE CONDITIONS one of the world's best Moths was faster than the 49ers that raced?

Shouldn't you also perhaps include other information ie Colin's analysis of foiler performance in non-foiling conditions, the Brass Monkey performance etc?

Incredible boats, amazing performers in  the right conditions, spectacular and breathtaking. But are they REALLY 15% faster than 49ers?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Doug Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 9:49pm
I'd really like to know more about that 14! Post it or e-mail me at : lorsail@webtv.net if you find a url for it.
Probably a little early to contact any organizations about this concept. That probably calls for a nearly worked out prototype that they could help optimize but which answers most of the questions that have been brought up here.
Look back a bit when you can and see if you can come up with any pros or cons between the two wing systems...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 9:33pm
There was actually an International 14 that was developed to allow sailors with limited movement to sail High Performance boats. Deck modifications were carried out, out-riggers added and I think it used Hurricane 5.9 sails with a 14 kite. Can't remember all the details but I'm sure other people on the site will. The boat is in production but can't remember the name of it, think its a Mantra but can't be sure. The concept that you are working on seems to be developing quite well and it will be interesting to see it on the water. Have you thought of contacting RYA Sailability for some feedback on your project?
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Doug Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 9:15pm
Dennis, I don't look at this as doing it the hard way. In fact when this is worked out it will be relatively simple and pretty fast. The only singlehander's(mono's) in a range close to this boat that you sit inside are
fixed keel. Bethwaites "LAS" is doublehanded.I have seen one small heavy "conventional" tri but this thing would be much lighter and probably faster.
I'm a great believer in what foils can add to a boat like this(and/or Bethwaite and Langmans Maxi Skiffs for that matter). Partial lift or full flying foils have a lot of promise. And when you factor in results like the 11' Moth foiler beating A class cats in a series of races and being 15% faster than a 49er you are talking about a coming revolution in dinghy(and keelboat!) performance. But thats another story.
For the time being I think that there might be a market for a boat that the skipper sits down inside to sail like a 2.4 Meter but that is three or four times as fast. I've talked to one disabled sailor that used to sail planing dinghies before he got hurt and he said that he would like to experience the thrill of planing again.(sails a big boat and a 2.4 now) I hope to help him do that even if I just build one boat.
But I think the concept has merit for able bodied sailors as well-maybe older people who just don't want to hike or run across the boat every time they tack or gybe.. The more ablebodied sailors would not need the ballasted daggerboard and that puts the numbers in the category of planing to windward!
Still plenty of problems to solve but it may well be worth it...    
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49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 7:15pm
I remember reading in Y&Y about a sailor who was paralysed from the waist down sailing High Performance cats, think he could have been racing a Tornado then a single handed cat. Why not explore this idea more instead of trying to design radical boats. Why try and solve a problem the hard way when there are easier routes around it. Plus I don't think any of the mono-hull heavy skiffs will ever match a cat in the performance stakes or even get close. Has anyone actually consulted the sailors who would be interested in sailing the proposed classes and actually considered what they want? It's okay having a good idea but in practise it's success when developed is whether it will appeal to other people.

Edited by 49erGBR735HSC
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 6:58pm
Why not just go for a multi hull Tonns of stability and speed with out the complexity and vast expence that that brings?


If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 6:24pm

I think keeping the boat as simple as possible is the best idea. Have a look at modern day skiffs and see how simple the deck layouts are, for example the 49er, the new rules 18s (Murray design), 29er, Musto Performance Skiff, etc. I don't think any heavy boat can be described as a true skiff. My personal opinion is that the balasted boats are going to be an equivalent to small sport-boats, which is not a bad thing. The foils idea seems good, but a lot of development on the foils alone will need to be carried out. Is there no way of designing a skiff which relies on an active crew but can have a fixed position for the helm, maybe a happy compramise. There are a few disabled sailors who are sailing cats successfully just now, maybe this idea should be promoted more as well as developing balast reliant boats. 

Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
Helensburgh S.C
Boat Insurance from Noble Marine

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