Rule 78
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9992
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 9:00am
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Topic: Rule 78
Posted By: JVSAIL
Subject: Rule 78
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 5:36pm
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So I was told that I'm not aloud to protest sailiors at my club who do not sail by there class rules. This mainly is people sailing double handed boats singlehanded. which means there handicap is wrong and it has become very hard for me in an RS200 to beat slower boats which i shold beat hands down. short of moving clubs i'm not sure what else to do. Happy Sailing.
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Replies:
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 5:40pm
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Im sorry, Im not quite sure what you are saying. That you are not allowed to protest these boats for anything (port, starboard etc.) or that your not allowed to protest them for sailing outside of their class rules?
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 6:01pm
Be careful, for handicap racing not all class rules are applicable, otherwise RSs would be allowed to smash into all the marks.
I think you might struggle to win a protest of this nature at any club. The issue is really to do with how the club handles sailing a boat in a configuration for which it does not have a PY number. I am absolutely positive that the RYA view on this would be that as a club you should be creating your own PY numbers using the new PYS site, and that this includes PYs for dinghies not sailed in the usual config. For 2 man boats sailing singlehanded I think your best course of action would be to talk to the boats involved, the fleet captain and the sailing sec. and try to identify a fair number for them. This number can then be used as a basis until you get a better figure out of PYS.
Remember the published PY numbers are only a national guideline and that the RYA recommends you adjust locally.
Also consider what classes are involved. If its the likes of Miracles and Grads etc. The benefits of sailing crew-less are pretty small if not zero, as most are often sailed by parents and kids with the kids weighing virtually nothing and the parent sailing the boat.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 6:04pm
Well, a club isn't permitted to refuse a valid protest. That's basic in the RRS. However I'm quite sure you'll kick up an awful lot of bad feeling if you do. So maybe a move to a different club might be a better alternative.
Craigo - touching marks in certain classes is Sailing Instructions not class rules. That's a crucial distinction because class rules do apply in handicap racing.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 6:26pm
Burghfield allow singletons in doublehanders, but they take a twenty or thirty point penalty from memory. Still fives the singlehander the advantage in zepher breezes, but as soon as hiking is required it evens out pretty quickly.
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 7:15pm
At Whitefriars, we take 20 points from any boat slower than 1000 (I admit a number picked for ease of use). That way, boats like Fireballs sailing singlehanded, which are unlikely to be faster (even if using the spinnaker, it is unlikely to be smooth singlehanded) don't get a penalty, but a boat like a Firefly does. It doesn't really work (I'd still win in up to a force 2, and lose horribly thereafter, but it stops people dumping the crew for the light stuff. That, and it counting as a different boat in the race series.
So, all in all, sounds like something to bring up with the sailing committee, not the protest one.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Neptune
Burghfield allow singletons in doublehanders, but they take a twenty or thirty point penalty from memory. Still fives the singlehander the advantage in zepher breezes, but as soon as hiking is required it evens out pretty quickly. |
Yep we do exactly the same, well 20 point penalty from memory.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 8:06pm
Give us the details and we could perhaps work on a protest. The ideal would then to take any decision to appeal and get a definitive answer. Or ask your club to request clarification.
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Gordon
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 8:26pm
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The starting point is whether the SI state which Class Rules (CR), if any apply.
Rule J2.1(3) requires the SI to state '... the classes to race ...', then, the CR of the the classes listed will apply (Definitions: rules).
I am guessing that for PY races, your club might not state the classes to race in the SI, or at least not do so directly. In which case you might have difficulty establishing which, if any CR apply.
I am also guessing that RYA will have a sample SI which should deal effectively with application of CR in PY racing.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by JimC
Craigo - touching marks in certain classes is Sailing Instructions not class rules. That's a crucial distinction because class rules do apply in handicap racing. |
My mistake, you are of course correct Jim.
As for class rules, some clearly state number of crew, but others don't. Unless you really know your class rules you could end up in a tricky situation.
At the end of the day, good communication and allowing the discussions to be had will provide an answer, so rather than talking about it on here, go and talk to the relevant people in your club and get it sorted out.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 10:39pm
or find a club with fleet racing.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Nov 12 at 11:19pm
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What are, and are not Class Rules is discussed in http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QABookletOctober292012-%5b13832%5d.pdf - ISAF Q&A 2011-025
M 013 Q&A 2011-025
Published: 9 January 2012
Situation
The rulebook for an ISAF International Class includes a document called 'Rules of Conduct for
Conducting National and International Championship Regattas' with a list of rules for running
important regattas. This document includes a rule that says, 'A sustained wind variation of 20
degrees or more from the posted bearing during the first leg of a race shall result in that race to
be abandoned and re-sailed, or abandoned'.
Question 1
Can this rule be considered as a Class Rule?
Answer 1
No. The Definitions in the beginning of the ISAF Regulations make it clear that Class Rules are
defined in the Equipment Rules of Sailing (ERS). The introduction to the ERS lists Class Rules as
limited to rules about equipment, namely the boat, including its equipment, and the personal
equipment, and ERS rule C2.1 defines Class Rules and confirms this limitation.
Question 2
When listed under Rules in the notice of race and sailing instructions, could this document be
considered as 'any other document that govern the event'? (See Definition Rules.)
Answer 2
Yes, provided it complies with the requirements of rule J1.1(3).
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 12 at 8:01pm
Unless the NoR restricts entry to classes with a recognised PY, any boat is eligible to race.
If a boat is not sailing in its CR configuration, then fairness suggests that the race committee should allocate a different PY.
But there are many reasons for changing a PY, the race committee have pretty much total discretion if they choose not to adjust the numbers. Most clubs do not adjust PY's as much as the RYA suggest.
It is conceivable that say a Fireball sailed s/h might deserve say -20 on its PY for being single handed, but +20 because it is not favoured in light inland conditions.
I think you could apply for redress, but I would not expect to get anywhere.
I think clubs should set a clear policy for how their PY's are set.
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