Fast pins?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9965
Printed Date: 18 Jul 25 at 12:34pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Fast pins?
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Subject: Fast pins?
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 1:44pm
| Has anyone seen a fast pin break? I have in the past used both the Ronstan type with the steel ring pull and the blue ones with the central button, and never brocken them but I wondered if they were safe or a problem waiting to happen.(i have managed to bend some regular rigging pins recently and wondered if the fast pin could have taken that load) |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 2:00pm
|
I can't really think of a reason why the Ronstan ones should be significantly stronger or weaker than the conventional design. After all if its the same thickness of the same grade of stainless steel...
I'm not familiar with the others. Really I think you just need to go up a size... |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 5:31pm
| You cant really go up a size as you couldn't get a thicker pin through the hole in the shroud adjuster. My thinking was that if the solid pins bent, the fast pins must be weaker as they are not solid due to the internal mechanism. Thus they could be suspect ( but if no one has ever seen them go, I shouldn't really waste my time worrying about them!) |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 6:05pm
|
Fast pins have been almost standard practice in Fireballs for years. I've never seen one bend or break. The internally machined part of the pin is outside the loaded area when installed so it's no different to a normal pin. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 6:17pm
|
The only issue I've ever had with fast pins has been a metric/imperial mismatch where the pins are slightly smaller diameter than the hole so they can fall out.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 6:44pm
|
I had one pull out on one side and bend that chain plate thing, lucky I spotted it before we went out.
It's such an archaic system I can't believe it's still used in the twenty-first century. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 7:03pm
|
given all the other bits of rigging a boat up; Do fast pins really save much time? some of the split rings designs can be removed really quickly and it doesn't really take more than 20 seconds to change the position ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 8:01pm
| Thanks for all the info. I quite like the fast pins, dropping one of those little circular wire things in the sand at 10 minutes to go stresses me out (especially with my poor eyesight) so I'll probably keep using them. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 8:16pm
If you want to change mast rake on the water between races a fast pin is much easier and less risky. We would use fine cord to tie ours to the chain plate so we couldn't lose them. Never had one break or fail. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 12 at 8:30pm
Well yes, you do have to go up a size as well on those too:-) |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 21 Oct 12 at 4:44pm
|
I've had then ping out with kite sheets... but never bend out of shape.
Fast pins aren't fast without tape! ------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 Oct 12 at 4:58pm
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I know someone who nearly lost the whole of their rig over the side trying to adjust them on the water. I personally wouldn't bother on the water but they can be advantageous on shore ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 21 Oct 12 at 5:33pm
Put them in from the inside then the ring is protected from kite sheet snagging. I also use a standard pin in the topmost position so the rig is always secure and changing up is simply a matter of pulling the pin (tied on, of course!) ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 22 Oct 12 at 1:01pm
+1
|
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 2:15am
Or buy a drill. ------------- Keith 29er 661 (with my daughters / nephew) 49er 688 (with Phil P) RS200 968 Vortex (occasionally) Laser 2049XX |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 2:21am
That only works with the 'fireball' slot system. If you have a simple swaged eye or similar on the shroud and the pin fails, (fast or otherwise) the mast falls down. Don't know why more classes don't use the Fireball system - its simple, easy to use and safe as mast can't fall down. ------------- Keith 29er 661 (with my daughters / nephew) 49er 688 (with Phil P) RS200 968 Vortex (occasionally) Laser 2049XX |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 6:35am
| The Ronstan shroud adjuster has a pin in the top and the channel is restricted at the top so that with the top pin in the shroud cant fall out. This is handy when changing things on the water so you dont lose the shroud but I suspect that if the fast pin broke the load would be so much that the bent bit of metal at the top of the adjuster would unbend and you would lose the rig. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 10:53am
|
Regarding the extra pin at the top of the adjuster, rather than fast pins: I've had a shroud fail at the lower splice and had to wonder if it wasn't because I had an extra pin at the top of the adjuster that caused the shroud to bend round it under load. The shroud pin was in the aft row of holes so that the natural shroud line exited the plate along the aft edge rather than the top, but the extra pin at the top prevented this alignment. It seemed to me that by bending the shroud close to the splice, some strands (on the outside of the bend) were placed under greater load than others, which may have led to the failure. Otherwise the splice looked good, with the ends of the strands projecting from the ferrule:  ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:22am
|
That's interesting to share. It seems as though something added as a safety feature could have actually ended up causing a failure. What was the damage when the rigging failed? Just a suggestion, at the dinghy ex. I noticed a Scorpion with adjustable rig (string/wire) there was a wire safety strop though the shroud eye/U bolt in case of failure. Whether you use fast pins, or clevis pins, maybe some sort of soft secondary safety leash would be better to save the rig rather than a 'safety' top pin which could deflect the shroud under load at or around its weakest point where it is swaged.
|
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:27am
That isn't the Rhonstan adjuster refered to earlier, and thats probably why it failed, the Rhonstan adjuster has the top pin offset to avoid that abrasion and keep the shrouds inline.
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:28am
I'd be rather wary of doing that. Drilling holes means (of course) that you are taking metal out of the fitting which must reduce strength. You have to be very sure that you are not just creating a new weakness. A "perfect" shroud plate would have no more metal in the plate than is needed to cope with the maximum load transmissable through the pin. I have never done the sums to see how much reserve strength the plates have against the pins, but I hope there isn't a great deal, 'cause if there is then the fittings are heavier and thus more expensive than they need to be to do fulfil the designed task. |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:31am
Here the top pin is offset to avoid the abrasion.
|
Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:49am
When the quick pin comes out the shroud is under tension and just pulls past the top pin. I know this because it happened to me on Sunday whilst going up wind, quick pin came out, big bang and floppy shroud. Luckily the mast didn't just fall over, it stayed upright on the lowers so I was able to tie the shroud and get home! |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 12:06pm
|
we always had the fast pins tied in with little bits of string. Changing rake on the water is ok when you've done it a few times, and often worth it eg if you're out all day and a big sea breeze comes in or somesuch. We would also go up on the foredeck or spi pole to change spreader angles.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 12:59pm
I suspect that is because the terminal on the end of your shroud was not exactly what the fitting was designed for? Maybe that fitting was designed for a talurit eye? If you put a bush or a bunch of M5 washers on that top pin, it reduces the gap to something an eye terminal won't be pulled through, but you have to ensure the wire runs straight, not deflected by the bush, or it may fail. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 1:19pm
The lowers restrained the mast up to the gooseneck, whereas the rest of the mast went over the side = new mast required. Had we not had lowers, it would have been harmless enough once we'd stowed the kite... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 4:48pm
|
http://sailsportmarine.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=108_126&products_id=550 
------------- the same, but different... |