Inner Distance Mark
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9778
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 7:03am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Inner Distance Mark
Posted By: jsluke
Subject: Inner Distance Mark
Date Posted: 01 Sep 12 at 10:56am
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At a recent Tuesday Evening Race off Cowes I encountered an unusual racing situation and would be interested in everyone's views on the rule situation. The start line for the race was set up for an upwind start with a strong bias (it's actually a fixed line) so it was impossible to cross the start line on starboard. Boats were also heading into a very strong tide (pushing them away from the start line) so a boat approaching the line on starboard would be swept away from the line. A boat approaching the line on port would be able to cross the line but still be plugging against the tide. In these circumstances a number of competitors attempt a dip start. They position their boats upwind and uptide of the start line (on course side) on starboard tack (position 1 below). The idea is to be swept by the tide back down to the start line and to arrive at the inner distance mark as the gun goes. If timed perfectly a boat arriving at the inner distance mark on starboard will have right of way over the fleet coming in on port (position 2 below). They then tack onto port on the gun and win the start. Obviously they have to ensure that they dip back under the line just before the gun.  Normally, the Inner Distance Mark is positioned just below the start line and a dip starting boat that arrives early is severely punished. If they dip below the Inner Distance Mark they have to find a way to get back to the start line amongst the pack of port tackers. If they tack and cross the line they are OCS. My question relates to a slightly unusual twist on this dip start scenario. Last Tuesday the inner distance mark was set a long way below the start line (determined by a transit on the sailing club masts). The boat attempting the dip start was early and arrived at the inner distance mark with 10 seconds to go. However, as there was a gap between the inner distance mark and the line they were able to escape the situation as shown below. At position 1 they started their run in from above the line. They reached position (2) with 10 seconds to go and normally they would have had to either duck under the inner distance mark (putting them behind the pack on port tack for the start) or tack back across the line (putting them OCS for the start). However, the distance between the Inner Distance Mark and the line allowed the boat to continue their transit and dip under the line (3).  To add a final twist to this situation .... because the line is skewed and because the tide falls off rapidly inside the Inner Distance Mark the boat in question gained a huge advantage. They were first to the windward mark by a long way. So my question is whether on this occasion the dip starting boat started legitimately? By the way, I'm not looking for redress - it's a friendly series and we discourage protests, however I am really curious as to how this would be heard by an official protest committee. Many thanks. James. |
Replies:
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 01 Sep 12 at 11:25am
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All depends on the wording of the SIs about the definition of the line. Assuming this is the Island's Tuesday night racing (can't really imagine it's anything else!), the SIs read: 9.1. The Start line is the extension of a line through the two club flagstaffs, each bearing an orange panel with a black cross. 9.2. The Outer Distance Mark (ODM) is a black inflatable buoy. If it is not laid the ODM will be the yellow cylindrical Trinity House Buoy. 9.3. The Inner Distance Mark (IDM), if laid, is a black inflatable buoy, at the southern end of the line. When starting, boats shall pass between the IDM and ODM. 9.4. When either the ODM or the IDM is on the pre-start side of the line, boats shall start between the points of the line nearest to the ODM and IDM. Start is a defined term in the RRS. Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line in the direction of the first mark. So she didn't start "between the points of the line nearest to the ODM and IDM.". In other words no, it wasn't a legitimate start. Incidentally, you have to be careful with dip starts. 21.1 A boat sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line or one of its extensions after her starting signal to start or to comply with rule 30.1 shall keep clear of a boat not doing so until she is completely on the pre-start side. So if you're OCS and returning, until you're on the pre-start side of the line you have to keep clear of boats that weren't OCS. Not a problem if you arrive on the pre-start side just before the gun. It can be a problem if you're a bit late.
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Posted By: jsluke
Date Posted: 01 Sep 12 at 12:11pm
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Thanks Presuming Ed You are correct - it was the Island SC start. We started further along the line and I had a grandstand view of the pack of port tack boats and the dip starting starboard boat. To simplify my explanation above I left out the fact that there was interaction between the two lead Port tack boats and the dip starting Starboard tack boat. The Port tack boats then turned back as they were OCS so the Starboard tack boat had to have been OCS at that point as well. I do want to emphasise that my question was posted purely out of curiosity / rules fascination. It's a friendly series and I simply thought this raised a really interesting rules question. If anyone else who was there has a different recall of events I'd be interested to hear but please don't interpret my post as a complaint / moan in any form. Just discussing over a virtual pint with friends who I love racing against. The Island SC starts are unique and a lot of fun due to the line angle, strong tide and wind direction. Five years ago nobody would have attempted this dip start but the class has become a lot more competitive now and if you win the pin end you get a huge advantage - hence a lot of us try the dip start. Personally, I think I've made it work once in twenty attempts!  Thanks again for the explanation. James. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 01 Sep 12 at 9:40pm
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This is not an uncommon occurrence. I looked at this a few years ago as we had a few guys who would sail up the triangle and get a better start. I believe there is a case about this which states if the inner distance mark is too far below the start line it can be ignored. You would have to look this up as I can't remember the exact ruling. Otherwise as long as you are not over the line and don't cross the no go line you are in the clear.
Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 01 Sep 12 at 10:20pm
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RYA 2006/1 (Incorporating RYA 1965/18) Rule 28.1, Sailing the Course Rule 28.2, Sailing the Course A starting limit mark does not have a required side for a boat when it is laid on the pre-start side of, and more than a boat-length from, the starting line. SUMMARY OF THE FACTS The sailing instructions said that the starting line was a transit with an inner limit mark and an outer limit mark, and that boats were to pass between those marks while approaching the line to start. Highlander sailed a course when starting that did not take her between the limit marks when approaching the line to start. The outer limit mark was two boat-lengths to leeward of the starting line. She was protested, was disqualified, and appealed. DECISION Highlander’s appeal is upheld, and she is to be reinstated into her finishing position. The limit marks were starting marks. Rule 28.2 requires a starting mark to be left on the required side when approaching the starting line to start. The effect of the sailing instruction was that the outer limit mark was to be left to starboard at that time. It is the ‘string test’ in rule 28.1 that decides whether this requirement has been met, and the ‘string test’ does not begin to apply until after a boat has started. Therefore, the beginning of a boat’s track will be at most one boat length on the prestart side of the starting line. As a result, the string cannot be said to lie on any side of a starting limit mark when that mark is more than one boat length on the prestart side of the starting line. Smithereen v Highlander, Port Edgar YC
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 7:49am
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9.4. When either the ODM or the IDM is on the pre-start side of the
line, boats shall start between the points of the line nearest to the
ODM and IDM. seems specifically drafted to avoid that issue? But there's no similar wording in (say) the Cowes Week Black Group SIs, despite it being common on the RYS line for the ODM to be several boat lengths off the line. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 8:18am
| Every now and then one comes across an appeal that really doesn't seem enormously helpful to promoting fairer racing... Think that's one of them! |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 8:57am
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I think the only real learning point from that is for Mark Layers- make sure Distance Marks are on the line or on the course side of the line (but only just!)
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 9:00am
Easier said than done sometimes: and consider a handicap race with Oppies and Flying Dutchmen... |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 11:13am
Yes.
Not necessary for this year as the black group line had nothing to do with the RYS line - it (black group line) was defined as between the committee boat and the ODM at the southern end. And for the white group, we found Alpha (the ODM) was generally within 1bl of the line, and as the only time you want to be out at that end was starting to the west on the ebb, it's not really a problem as the tide takes you west pretty quickly. Trying to muck about being clever isn't really worth it - far better to concentrate on Cowes week rule 1 - on the line in clear air.
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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 11:18am
Easier for SI writers to include an SI similar to the Island's
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 12:44pm
Oh dear I see I was living in the past on that one but in my defence, gentlemen prefer to sail in White Group. What I was trying to get at were starts off the full-length RYS line where the ODM is a fixed navigation mark that moves several boat lengths in the current. Although, I guess as it is mostly used for west-going starts on the ebb, when the mark will shift to the west, the issue doesn't arise that often. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 12:49pm
Fairly common however for coastal clubs to use fixed navigation marks as the ODM of club lines, which shift in the tide. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 02 Sep 12 at 8:37pm
How exactly can this be enforced? It doesn't solve the problem either, as a STBD boat might touch the line well offshore then 'ferry glide' along the line right into the shore. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 03 Sep 12 at 8:45am
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In the same way that all rules are enforced in our self-policing sport. If someone thinks a boat has broken it, they should protest. The PC will then make a judgement on the evidence presented. As long as they comply with the definition of start, they're fine. And given the layout of the ISC startline, on a flooding tide like that you can't actually comply with the definition on starboard - you have to cross the line on port.
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