Single trapeze RS800 with slightly bigger sails? a 29er for Dads!? 

 

Granted, its not an assymetric, but where is the fun in a spinnaker that works like a giant jib anyway. 

Latest 505's use twin spinnaker poles that are permanantly attached - wire to wire spinnaker gybes are sub 10 seconds for the average guys (top boys are much quicker)

It's carbon mast could take a bigger kite its true, but that would really restrict you to windward leeward racing and defies the object of the boat, you'd have to sail it badly to be bested by RS400's unless it's very very light in which case it would be a question of shifts.

The alternative as someone else suggested would be a single trap set up on a 49er, but again from what I hear they can be a handful you'll spend more time swimming around than enjoying the craic of the race, no I think all in all given your locale, your previous experience in the 400 the Alto would be an excellent next step.

does the alto still use the 400 kite?  i know the first ones were all 400's because i modified them all...

Did you now? I didn't realise that, I'm out of the loop these days, but I know they messed around with 'bigger' and 'smaller' and don't even know what mine is, except it is highly shredded and must have 50 odd patches on it by now and that is very useful information, can you tell us in which way the 400 kite was modified (Other than having additional charisma) to fit the Alto?

fun spinnaker work to improve on, fabulous in serious wind, comfortable when drifting - whats not to like?

 

Go and try one out. Loads of people would be happy to take you out for a trial in any of them

There is no market gap, the Alto is a fast modern Asymmetric which also competes with Symmetric Boats, it is neither over or under powered, can be used in all conditions on any course in any environment which is more than can be said about a lot of boats. No need to have to buy old dross like 505's, Ospreys, Javelins, Fireballs or other relics from bygone eras..

Of course the 800 was originally available as a single wire option. Hence all the tramp eyes along the inner sides. Presumably back in the day it would have had a separate PY?

Asymmetric kites are fast and easy but really are one trick ponies best suited to sea venues.

Used to have a trapeze asymmetric and seen others come and go and always pleased to have made the move to a wiring symmetric boat, so much more versatile over a wider wind range and all sorts of waters.

For ease of use the Alto looks a fine boat but the 505 is certainly no tub and is a thing of beauty.

    

505- still my favourite dinghy of all time, you just can't beat it for looks, performance and pure sailing pleasure.

The stock Alto is very much a detuned, anyone can sail it vessel, but that gives it total versatility, you can quite literally take it out in anything they can set a course in and race rather than survive, it also thanks to its legacy 505 hull shape (but with the addition of a hard chine water release which helps windy planing)it's no slouch in a drifter, it's only draw back is those old fashioned self baler things boat used to come with, that leak and in light weather you end up carrying excess water about with you. They should have made it a wash through, then it would have been perfect.

I guess it kind of needs to be... without a properly committed helm/crew partnership a 505 is totally off the agenda, irrespective of how nice it might be.  The ASBO seemingly can be sailed with a scratch crew, which might suit the 21st century a bit better... especially if it helps encourage newbies off the beach without having to invest in their own boats to take up the sport.  

Front to back? I'm sorry i thought this was yachts and yachting? talking about dinghys with bows and sterns? fore and aft? front to back.... FFS

That said, with the exception of his traditional rant against traditional classes like the 505, most of his remarks on the Alto are spot on imho.

I'd question the need for a fully mast-head kite, but it could certainly benefit from a somewhat longer hoist.

Agreed, the self-tacker could usefully go (saving a bundle on the track and car) - crews usually complain that they don't have enough to do on asymmetrics (which is why they tend to buy Fireballs for rent-a-helms).  Switching the jib on gybes is another opportunity to make themselves count. You don't have to go for a large 505 jib, but something just a tad closer to an overlap (jib leach on the mast in profile view) would make the jib easier to set perfectly and likely improve the boat's tractability. You could also ditch the battens and fit a furler.

I hate high double floors such as on the Iso/Buzz, but a low one à la L2k is unobjectionable.  I doubt that raising the boom 5 inches would have much impact on performance - the jib should effectively 'earth' the rig to the deck for aspect ratio purposes (cut-outs in the trailing edges of wings have relatively little effect).  You could then do away with the side tanks and have a boat which floats agreeably low when capsized (which it currently doesn't according to my observation - lower than a 505, maybe, but that's not saying much).

505 aside, I'd guess the Alto is about the fastest thing you'd want at L&L.  The former 3k class sec sails at L&L, and I seem to recall him saying you wouldn't want an assy much faster than a 3k there.  The Alto's swinging pole might just let it fit in.

Excellent point based on detailed research..anyway, moving on.... just trying to say they are good boats, active class associations, full calendar of events and always worth consideration if on a small budget

The 4000 is an excellent boat - and mine is for sale http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=261823 - here . 

I do so hope you paid no mind to any such accusation.. I certainly took no offence at any time, and it should be pointed out, my quite deliberate goading, deserved any riposte you cared to parry with...Don't let them wind you up as well, that's my preserve...

Well done. I thought I'd seen a picture of one somewhere. The mainsheet tower makes a lot of sense in that configuration.

But those racks are further in than some twin-wire 800 set-ups use - you'd need a fair bit of lard on the wire to hold that up.

I'm not sure you would. The main and jib are only a bit larger than a 4K.

 

Definitely Minorca Sailing.

Frankly, you'd be lucky to get away with manslaughter after you'd kebabbed a Laser sailor at L&L...

Because they can! Don't forget, like the 4K, the 800 is weight equalised with lead and rack settings.

  

Ok. Point taken. I'll get my coat. 

The photo was taken at Sunsail Club javelin in Turkey in 2003, the first year Sunsail took on the 800.

I stand corrected.

It may be a trick of the light, but are those spars painted white or silver, or are they metal?  Not the usual varnished carbon anyway, so far as I can see.  I guess the ultra violet is cruel to naked carbon in those climes.

 

Have to say I immediately said Fornells, Menorca

As one who has spent 20+ summer holidays on the island including tens of hours each year watching the world and the dinghys go by in Fornells bay, I was convinced

Definitely not Minorca Sailing then!  A remarkable similarity to looking North up Fornells bay though.

1. Not at all recommending a bigger kite, but a taller thinner one, set on a slightly shorter pole.  Best thing we did for the 3k.  More aerodynamic efficiency and better helm balance when reaching as well.  Here are old & new kites (and that's the V3k prototype before I got my hands on the spreaders!):

2 & 3. One of the things (apart from the set) I dislike about self-tackers is the way they power up instantly after a tack; I prefer crews to ease and re-sheet them anyway on tacks. Sure, I've been capsized by the tiny jib on a Fireball on a windy day, and not just because the crew forgot it in a tack - we just got blown over; I'd be worried about that every windy tack with a self tacker.  But an Alto is so stable, how often are you going to go in because of the crew forgetting to uncleat?  Very rare even on a 3k.

4. Alto is quick enough, but I never felt it get 'in the groove'.  Just a small improvement in the slot by reducing underlap on the L3k (the new North jib on the 3k is hardly overlapping) made a big difference to getting the boat in the groove and getting it off the line compared to the old L3k jib; jib set just seems that much less critical. I don't think we could have achieved that with a sheeting position forward of the mast - I know the Alto jib leach brushes the mast, but what with battens and the forward sheeting, I never felt I could get it right.  Besides, I much prefer Dacron for a jib - Fireballs & Merlins don't choose them for nothing.

5. Our builder started off with a battened Mylar jib for just your reasons - a triumph of form over function, but I badgered away and we got a new Dacron jib as an alternative.  Many 3k's have now switched to Dacron and none has gone back, despite the Mylar sail being slightly bigger (thanks to the battens)

6. Not sure why doing away with the side tanks would involve increasing the freeboard.  JimC once posted a picture of a Cherub with a double bottom and no sidetanks, but which had wide side decks in the form of very wide hull gunwale joining lips; looked like the best of all worlds.  Yes, the cockpit would be wider, but no worse than the new Wayfarer (sailed largely by old blokes), and you already have a zimmer frame in the Alto (that i'd also do away with & save face and money - just use a fixed length forestay to prevent excessive rake like the 29ers...) As for capsize hassle being a merit as you're suggesting, one of the things that might finally drive me into keelboats is the worry that on a very windy day I might not be able to self-rescue, so the better-behaved a boat is in capsizes the more I like it; it's not just a case of speed.

Interestingly, one of your customers and another potential at Wilsonian agreed with me on all points as I reeled them of a couple of months ago.  We'd also do away with the gnav and spend the cash on a carbon boom - it's helmsmen who generally pay for the boat after all(!) - and even on the 3k as a helm I prefer a normal kicker.

1. We shortened the 3k pole 150mm; I doubt 50mm would make much odds on such a long pole as Alto's.

6.  Don't try to tell a 3k sailor about side-deck to floor heights!  I see no problem... :-)

None of the things we're discussing would make much impact on speed, more on 'niceness', so no more problem with banditry claims than you have already!

Double floor could probably be lower if you keep your transom. Unlike Grumph, I'd be happy to keep the bailers too (in a well, like the new Wayfarer - it's not all bad by any means!) By that measure, plenty of scope for an Alto to have a double bottom imho.

It is indeed the ultimate answer, however. Would help Alto and could transform Wayfarer and Laser 2000 into docile non-inverters; the latter would then too be a boat I could recommend wholeheartedly to novices...

Trust the Germans to do a quality job!

 

L&L ? Yeah it is about big enough for RS400s, although the Budds did come out in a brand new 49er one day which was just a bit pointless.

 

Still, the club did have a 505 national champion when that was a hot fleet I was told.

 

59er would be a laugh in light winds ( it has a better hull for light winds than the other 9ers and most skiff designs about- more dead rise angle allowing the stern wave  to slip off easier) but a bit silly in more wind.

 

There must be some RS400s still there, so I'd opt for that- they can carry a lot of weight and are about as much speed as the lake can handle IMHO

 

Also it got a good bit of wind when I sailed there- took a tasar out in F7 once.

 

But boats with assy's much faster than the RS400 are a waste of time IMHO because it is so small. If they have been having light winds in the summer then yeah a 59er would be fun.

 

They also used to set some odd courses with tight reaches and so on, so someone else may like to comment on more recent experiences than mine.

 

I would personnally recommend a tasar or an RS400. Both take weight if you aren't aiming to be national champ and also the tasar can be car topped. Pedestrian in light airs though on the run.

This wasn't enough though, I felt the light wind performance (6 - 12) kts needed more optimising, plus the 2 sail reaching ability. I managed to pick up a CST Int 14 carbon 2 spreader rig, 49er boom and get a great sailmaker to make a big return jib, with a matched flat 11.5m main.  

The performance boost was quite incredible!, but the trade off is that you have to have the more experienced skiff trapeze crew over 12 knots who can help put the power down. When it gets real windy, you can put up the regular rig, with the flat high aspect B14 kite (with kite bag for windward drops). 

You could of course just buy a cheap as chips B14, but I felt the kite chute on the 59er was worth plumping for to make the crewing easier.  But where's the fun in that? , it was a fun challenge to source 2nd hand high tech rig components. There are some real bargains out there!!

So I've ended up with a versatile fast project dinghy, that does 20kts on the Velocitek for less than £4.5...mmm. Really good sh*ts n'giggles fun for little money.  Racing ?..it matters not, as there are loads of slow and tactical one-design dinghy and day boat  fleets locally, sports boats galore and yachts and  to sail in to get my racing fix.

It's been a real blast this Summer, having the ability to mix and match fleets, boats and boards for the conditions. I would recommend it