Dilemma with single handed skiff!
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9735
Printed Date: 18 Jul 25 at 11:20am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Dilemma with single handed skiff!
Posted By: frow3n
Subject: Dilemma with single handed skiff!
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 5:59pm
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Hi, I am a Laser Radial sailor at Queen Mary in London. As some will know this club has a decently sized fleet for the RS 700. However personally I am a fan of the Musto. I have tried it :) So I ask, is it better to go for the boat which is more popular at my club? Or go with what I prefer and end up being the only active musto? Musto's aren't cheap though :( Regards, Fred ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Replies:
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 6:31pm
| There is a big Musto fleet up the road from you at Datchet; get what and have fleet sailing. |
Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 10:17pm
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Musto's aren't cheap though and we just brought a laser but in all honesty... they are a bit boring... I guess I'll have to wait till Minorca... How much harder is the musto than the 700 ? ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 10:39pm
| Isn't the musto meant to be easier that the 700? That's why I've heard |
Posted By: iamalipaul
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:23pm
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I went for the 7 a few years back, mainly because you get the same bang for less bucks. I havent sailed the Musto but no doubt its a nice boat, personally I think the 7 is more elegant, but both will be a big step up from a laser. Here at Grafham, both sail on the same PY (855), but with only a couple of each, we never seem to be out at the same time. There's a guy at Carsington who I believe has both, if he sees this thread he may answer to which is easiest? to sail. ------------- Still swimming with an RS700! |
Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:29pm
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let's hope he sees it :) hehe i really am i need of a challenge.. yet as a 15 year old i'm not loaded with cash... :) ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:41pm
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Musto - mOve to Datchet
Stay at QM, get a 700 |
Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:01am
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whats the best move though... :/ I'm personally not sure ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 1:27am
------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: popeye_ali
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 8:07am
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I have owned both and there are pros and cons for both. The Musto is easier to Jibe and get up from a capsize but is more unstable and harder to sail in general. Mustos hold there value and 700 dont although I belive this could be changing soon so I would go 700 esp if there others at your club. ------------- RS400, RS600, RS700, RS800, Int Moth, Laser. Musto Skiff (current) |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 9:13am
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the Musto has a better youth section than the 700 IF you plan to travel with it... you might, you're only a couple of years away from driving and those two years spent learning in a fleet at Datchet would ensure you're not going to come last at an event- even if you're a complete goon; not that it matters anyway, you'll get loads of encouragement from everyone in the Musto class. The 700 is cheaper and they sail them at your current club. Forget which boat do you want, and start thinking about what sailing you want. If you want to travel around a bit in a couple of years and learn from the best skiff sailors in the country, then there's only one answer. If you just want a fast rocket ship for club racing with the same guys / friends you've always had, or your club selection is fixed for family reasons... well the 700 is cheaper too. No one on here can tell you which one to get... you just need to be honest about the type sailing you want and can realistically access for next couple of years and beyond. FWIW- this sounds like a very nice dilemma to have!
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 10:32am
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Good advice above ... also think about what happens when you want to sell what ever you choose. The cost of ownership is not the purchase price
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Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 11:45am
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Anywhere I can try the 700? Also isn't the pump system pretty unreliable? ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:06pm
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ref pump system on the 700 if you keep your elastics in good knick there's no bother. If you don't want to move clubs and are lucky enough to have the financing at 15 to buy a 700 then go for it, you'll probably find your way back to Lasers (or similar) when you're older and financial responsibilties like houses and families start eating into your 'sailing budget'
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Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:21pm
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grr... such a difficult decision... i love them both!! I've sailed the two and I like them equally as much.... thing is... musto holds its value... whereas the 700 just doesn't does anyone know if second hand musto's will drop their price? ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:23pm
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So, buy an older RS700 which has already lost value. No point in buying new when most of the time to begin with it will be on its side!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:29pm
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musto sort of appeals more but the financial side of it is a bit of a worry..... thats where the 700 comes in... but i prefer the musto in some ways... ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 12:30pm
Of course they will... when they're old and knackered, they will sell as old and knackered Musto Skiffs. You can find them for under £4k, but similarly you can pick up a 7 for £2.5k. I think you're over analysing the two boats.... perhaps it's best that you get the 700 for the time being and stick with the club you know. Just don't spend £8k on a really shiny one and expect to sell it for the same when/if you leave to go to uni in a few years. |
Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 1:01pm
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thanks for the advice, i'm thinking of going for the 700 and then getting the musto when i have really learnt to sail the 700 well. ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 1:22pm
| yep - it will fit nicely between your current Radial and the 29er or Cherub when you can't find a crew. |
Posted By: gpage
Date Posted: 18 Oct 12 at 11:19pm
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I would definitely recommend the musto over the 700, you can easily buy one for 4-5k and you will still be able to sell it around that a few years down the line. However, it is important that you've got quite a lot of experience sailing some sort of a skiff as the musto really is a bit of an untaimed beast. I would strongly recommend that you spend a year or two in a 29er (or similar.. maybe a 600?) and do the circuit whilst you're young! It is a much easier boat to sail and will give you all the skills to get you going in a musto! (+its another boat which holds its value, whilst the 600 is dirt cheap.) Don't rush yourself into buying a Musto you've still got plenty more years of youth to take the skiff route! I also started sailing the musto at a young age and I definitely would have struggled hugely if I hadn't done the curcuit in 9ers. Give me a message if you've got any questions as I was also in a similar position not long ago. |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 18 Oct 12 at 11:30pm
| Might want to consider learning best how to sail your laser first. T'was good enough for B.Ainslie for a good number of years. |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 18 Oct 12 at 11:33pm
| ...and ps...try upgrading to the standard rig first...plenty of people find that a handful in F3 plus. |
Posted By: frow3n
Date Posted: 19 Oct 12 at 7:36am
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My laser sailing is good :) I'm off to Minorca again next summer... where I will sail the skiff for 1 week and then Laser for the 2nd ------------- Laser Radial 201357 29er 1907 Queen Mary SC |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 19 Oct 12 at 4:28pm
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Are you not only just in the radial this year from a 4.7? ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 1:48pm
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Hi all I am the carsington suspect with both boats, I always give the advice that 90 +KGS people would be good for the 700 and the lighter end 80 - 60KGS would be better off in a MPS, as Datchet is so near, the fleet of MPS at datchet are like a training group and all of top standard. I think they had seven boats out the other Saturday playing around, I would not miss the chance of joining such a group as they will pull your standard up very quickly. looking around you are in a great position down their at the moment. As regards money it is the running costs that count with the boats, the MPS has been very cheap to run and is worth £1000 -£1500 less after four years, it the petrol thats costs in sailing in travel. If you go for an old RS700 CHECK for some issues with the early boats on the RS700 forum on yahoo. ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 3:31pm
Sailing a Musto at Minorca will not be a very pleasant experience and likely to put you off the boat. The sailing area is in a inlet surrounded by hills ( mountains ) and this generates very shifty thermal wind. You either get quite light breeze or thumping great shifts and big gusts when it does blow. I sailed a Musto there and it was a hateful experience. Although I am small and on the bottom of the Musto weight range, in different a wind location the boat and I would have enjoyed ourselves. I'd test sail the boat in the UK rather than expect it to be sailing nirvana at Minorca. I couldn't really recommend it as a place to brush up your trapeze helming skills. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 3:35pm
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Great advice that, also the downhall on the musto takes all the power out of the boat, most people never start with enough downhall on and this makes it very hard to control, the sail of the MPS is not like most boats and the use of the downhall has a big effect on the rig. also waves will not help as they are hard to get afloat untill you get used to then, demo boat is at datchet at the moment? Chris ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 5:28pm
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I would add that above 80kg in a Musto is not the end of the world, certainly i don't feel underpowered and i'm 85kg - once your trapezing it does you know harm what so ever and in fact could be argued is actually faster upwind at least. I'm also one of the Datchet group and we are not all experts yet, but the standard is improving quickly with such a concentration of boats to sail against.....its awesome. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 6:22pm
The weights given by myself ar inland weights, just add 10 kgs for the sea or garda, Sten is 94 kgs and world champian many times, but Richard stenhouse would win if he was 74kgs as well as he is like an older BEN. ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 7:37pm
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Inland or sea it carries weight well ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:05pm
| ...but at 15, with a new(ish) Laser Radial, having just progressed from the 4.7, with still plenty to learn judging by results at QM...in my not especially humble opinion, hone your skills in the laser first, upgrade to the standard rig if need be, have fun in your 29er, enjoy playing around at Minorca, and when you can really afford the lifetime costs of one of these boats, allied to well developed sailing skills...then have a look at these sorts of boats. By that time there may well be something out there that surpasses both 700 and musto. On the other hand, if you just want to blast around....! |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 24 Oct 12 at 11:45pm
At 7 grand for a good second hand boat this is always the problem in in any class, with the way life is going in this land at the moment for the workforce on low wages, if you can lay your hand on one of these boats then do so, at 15 your time to master this boat should be shorter than an older sailor, also you just bounce at that age not crack like my body does  . The running costs are only a fraction of what my kids spend on booze I hate to say, £ 60 for a good Saturday night out per week is not that far off, that would be 3 grand a year, if my kids sailed I would loan them the money to keep them away from the pub, make them pay it back, most people spend more on chocolate than what my musto costs over 10 years. The real problem now is if you want kids, you have to sell your boat to pay for them, or sell your boat to get the money for a house. this maybe why our sport is slowly going to the dogs now. if you look around it kids sailing with dads money or dad sailing near to retirement?
------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 9:06am
Noooooooooooooooo, don't say that, I still have delusions of being able to sail with an imminent newborn on the way. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 9:38am
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I did, and did so without guilt or grief from my wife. You do need to adjust your expectations though, there will be periods where the boat's left idle and for me that meant selling my Musto Skiff. I needed to sail it every week to stay on the learning curve so I got the Phantom instead. On reflection I should probably have swallowed my pride earlier and joined the RS300 fleet we had at the time. I ended up there anyway and do regret not getting more out of the 300 when I had it. Best bit of advice- buy a boat that's actually raced at the club, that will mean every pass you get, there's a proper race to sail in.
------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 9:47am
I actually came back to dinghy sailing after my first was born, it fit much better to have a couple of hours racing and a beer on a Saturday or Sunday at my local sailing club, than spend all-day/weekend at the Hamble/Cowes.
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Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 10:15am
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I'm prepared for the all day Sunday sessions to come to an end but hopefully I can get out for at least one race most weeks. I guess only time will tell. I'm pretty much resigned to selling my Blaze over the winter, I'm just not entirely sure what to replace it with. Lasers are the only decent sized single handed fleet but I'm way too heavy to ever be competitive against the kids that sail them. We have three contenders but I've never trapezed and won't have the time to learn I suspect. There are three Phantoms but you're lucky to get two on a Sunday, normally it's just the one of them, plus I'd need to borrow some money from somewhere to make the jump, that just leaves the Vareo. We have two but neither are sailed regularly at the minute, it stands no chance against a Phantom when it's out but I can't get away from the fact that I got huge enjoyment out of playing with the kite when I tried it and in the absence of fleet racing or even being vaguely competitive perhaps it makes sense to buy something that will maximise the fun factor and that I can afford without too much of a stretch. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 10:46am
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If I had a choice between fleet sailing a Laser also far too over weight for it, or just blasting around in a Vareo again with the occasional handicap race, I'd probably pick the Vareo. That's why I feel lucky to have the Solo as an option for fleet racing. Although if you've got a Blaze already and it's only handicap racing on offer anyway, why not hang fire and see how it all works out? A Blaze would probably be a better boat for racing than a Vareo for sure. I've seen guys give up at 'our stage in life' when kids come along, but honestly don't let it go- even if you only get out a couple of times a month. They never seem to come back once they've dropped out. ------------- |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 1:04pm
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Who knows the vareo handicap could go back up again its slowly heading in the right direction for most that sail it .As for a fun boat i enjoyed all the ones i had found them a right laugh in even thirty knots with the kite up was fun till the swim but fun just the same.I am thinking about buying another single hander for next season so whens its too windy to sail with my daughter i can still go out and play i did think laser too but my knees hurt already and i dont think would cope with it as for the vareo i found it quite easy to sail so i reckon i might buy an older one again ??? ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 1:17pm
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I've had the same problem you describe Jimbo but with motorbikes. I sold mine when we moved from Northumberland down to the Midlands as I wanted some extra money in the bank and it was one less thing to move. The money is now gone and I know that I am unlikely to ever have a motorbike again. I won't let the same thing happen with dinghies. The Blaze is a good boat but I'm not sure it's right for my pond. It very rarely seems to blow above F3 and if it's less than that it feels like I'm not sailing the Blaze to 100% of it's ability if you know what I mean. I know light wind sailing is a skill etc but it's not what the Blaze is designed for, it feels like the wrong tool for the job. A Phantom makes logical sense, same sail area, less leverage so you're working harder in the same conditions but apart from the wind, the other problem (not really a problem as such) is that we're a club dominated by Flying Fifteens so many of our courses are a variety of beats and runs with few reaches. The Blaze (like most unarigs I suppose) is not fun to sail on a dead run and it's not very often we have the wind to make sailing the angles pay off. I think this will still be an issue with a Phantom but at least a Phantom is faster on a deep run in lighter winds. If I go for a Vareo, the light wind problem and feeling of only sailing a boat at 50-60% of it's ability may well be exacerbated because of the smaller sail area, but then there's less leverage than the Blaze so who knows, maybe it will feel like harder work in those conditions. The main thing is, at least I'll have something to do on those long, boring, deep runs. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 1:34pm
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I know what you mean, the Blaze does look like it needs to space to stretch it. It wasn't until I saw one up close against the Phantom at the FOM that I could really appreciate what you're saying- still, a Blaze is a nice boat, I wouldn't get shot until you're 100% sure you making the right move. I guess if you get the opportunity take a Vareo for a couple of races before selling the Blaze. Is the Vareo guy a nice bloke who'd happily swap for a race or two? It'll certainly liven up those dead downwinders, but then an old Finn would certainly do that too. I only got all of 40 minutes in one, in very light wind, but it was good fun downwind (and I truly thought it would be horrid after sailing boats with kites  ) ------------- |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 4:30pm
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One of the Vareo guys is pretty cool so getting another race in one shouldn't be a problem. What made the Finn so good downwind then?
------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 4:36pm
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Sounds like a plan Kev, wrt finn- sailing by the lee, and the sheer power and feel of the boat as it moved around those dead downwind angles. I also had a little play with the sheet on one-to-one, it was still heavy enough in little wind, and I can only imagine how much energy must go in to pumping one in a breeze. I think with the Olympics still so fresh in my mind it really gave me a good insight into what we saw on the web/TV during those windier races. It was a bit of a 'Holy Cow' moment to be honest. Definitely sail one if someone's kind enough to give you the opportunity... you'll never call them a boring old tub again ------------- |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 5:02pm
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I'd like a go in a Finn one day but there aren't any at our club and I'm not sure I'd fancy dragging one back up the hill to the top of the dinghy park either. I'd have to make a special "Olympic Boats but not Lasers" parking space somewhere down near the water's edge.
------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 5:06pm
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LOL- yep, they'd definitely take it out of you on a long drag up the beach. ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 5:11pm
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How did a skiff topic turn in to a discussion regarding the polar opposite of a skiff? ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 5:12pm
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Evolution! ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 7:31pm
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common decency? ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 7:35pm
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Keep it to the coffin thread then. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 7:38pm
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Who died and made you admin? ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 25 Oct 12 at 7:48pm
No one needed to die  but find your own room
Its just nice to have talk about something exciting for a change rather than it descend into why lots of boats going slowly is good racing. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |