Over the line
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9503
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 10:12pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Over the line
Posted By: gbrspratt
Subject: Over the line
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 1:36pm
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In last nights race a boat was over the line on the start gun so the crows nest gave the sound signal and the poor girls apparently put the wrong flag up (not known to me at this time).this boat carried on regardless so we gave a little shout just in case he didn't realise. still he carried on. so his argument is that the wrong flag was put up. but he was obviously over the line. i know its to late to do anything if i wanted to, i just want to know what should of/would of happened. He won the race in the end too.
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Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 1:57pm
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I though being over the line was one of the few things a race officer could decide upon without protest? I'm surprised he got a finish gun. I'd have thought that so long as it was obvious that someone was over, the wrong flag shouldn't matter - what did he think it meant?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 2:19pm
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Was there a redress hearing? They shouldn't really be reinstated without one.
Case 79 says
I think the redress hearing would have to establish the exact circumstances, and in particular whether the boat had any reason to know they were over the line. If they were a mile over, right by one end of the line or another, then their case for redress would be pretty poor, depending on how wrong the flag was... But in general the case tends to be biased in favour of the competitor, which is probably a good thing. It depends what came out in the evidence: if the boat was 4 inches across the line, and the flag displayed was the next class flag and there was some doubt about the audibility of the gun then I'd definitely give redress. If the boat was clearly two boat lengths over, and the crew says that they heard the gun, and saw the flag, which was 1st sub (general recall) so realised the RC were trying to signal a recall but reckoned that as it was the wrong flag for an individual they didn't need to go back, well... Hails are always tricky... last night RS400 845 was over the line and RS200 945 wasn't. Not easy to make that clear over a long line! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 2:31pm
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The sound signal means nothing, it is purely there to draw attention to a flag. If the flag is incorrect then, as harsh as it might seem, they were correct to carry on (IMO) as long as they were not miles over. If the RO team realised they had raised the wrong flag then they should have finished the boat. If not the the boat should have requested redress to allow for facts to be found as has already been stated. f they were a long way over they should have gone back regardless (in line with the basic principles). Although in theory another boat could then protest them under rule 2 as they gained a knowing unfair advantage but we really don't want to go there again do we? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 2:34pm
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 2:43pm
What is obvious to you may not be so obvious when you are on the water at the start especially on a crowded start line. Unfortunately it does come down to the right flag being displayed as it is the flag that gives the message. He may have thought he was ok. My argument would probably have been the same as his that the flag displayed didn't have the correct meaning. Of course were he miles over (and admitted this) then it is a whole different kettle of fish..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 3:03pm
Are you sure that's the case? Are you thinking of rule 26 "the absence of a sound signal shall be disregarded"? Surely that only applies to the start sequence flags doesn't it? |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 3:15pm
but other than the rule you pointed out, RRS does not mention let alone require sound signals AFAICS
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 3:26pm
??
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Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 3:33pm
| OCS is the only required sound signal |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 3:33pm
Correct about rule 26.
Paul is incorrect in general terms. RYA Appeal 2004/7 says:
The wording of rule 26: "times shall be taken from the visual signals; the absence of a sound signal shall be disregarded" differs from that used in other rules relying on signals, which in general specify the signal as 'flag with sound signals
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Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 3:41pm
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he was boat lengths over (i have some go-pro footage). and this argument/discussion happened on the water between a rescue boat and him when the rescue boat went over to tell him he was definitely over the line. so i would guess as he noticed the wrong flag he knew he was over the line?? ------------- |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 4:01pm
I agree with JimC that she should have been scored OCS (rule A5), and could have requested redress.
The key test from Case 79 is did she 'have no reason to know she crossed the starting line early', and I'm pretty sure that a sound signal accompanying a visual signal that wasn't either flag X or First Sub wouldn't be a good reason to know she was over. I agree with Paul, that the race committee should have recorded her finishing time ('cos if they didn't that will make calculating redress allowance harder).
If the race committee did score her with a finishing place, then she can sit pat.
If, as a matter of fact, she was on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal and did not return and restart, she has not started, and therefore will not have sailed the course in accordance with rule 28.
Somebody might care to protest her for breaking rule 28: but it's a bit late now.
Any other boat may request redress for the race committee's improper action in NOT scoring her OCS in accordance with rule A5.
She may not be penalised as a result of any redress hearing (rule 63.1), so calculation of redress for other boats is going to be a challenge.
But the race committee can help out here:
Q&A 2003-002 Question 1 Is the race committee allowed to score a boat under rule A5 after the race? Answer 1 Yes. Under rule A5, the race committee may score a boat, or correct a score, at any time. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 4:47pm
You should have protested. The failures of the RO don't exonerate the competitor, if he could reasonably be expected to know he was over the line. If he was scored OCS or DSQ's by the protest committee, he might ask for redress from the RO's shortcomings, but they could 'Hayling' him with average points or something. |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 6:28pm
And just to expand on that, the calculated redress (based on an actual finish position/time) would be adjusted to take into account the act of returning and starting correctly.
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 14 Jun 12 at 6:34pm
 That incident will pass into sailing folklore. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 19 Jun 12 at 9:02am
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Whilst the results are provisional - usually until the end of the series and any associated hearings- the Race Committee may correct any scoring errors without a hearing, within the bounds of rule A5. The boat can always request redress if she is unhappy. In this case, if the boat was clearly on course side the chances of her obtaining redress for the improper action of the Race Committee are zero - see cases 31 and 79 ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 19 Jun 12 at 3:23pm
I disagree that it is a condition for the race committee to correct an error that the scores should be 'provisional' That word is not mentioned in the RRS nor in Q&A 2003-002, which simply states Under rule A5, the race committee may score a boat, or correct a score, at any time (emphasis added). Q&A 2009-031 specifically addresses correcting scores after a regatta, and states There is no time limit [for the race committee to correct scores] but it will depend. The time elapsed since the end of the regatta is only one factor. If the event was being used as selection for another event that has not yet happened, correction is necessary. The importance of the event and the value of prizes are other factors. I don't think that there is any need for 'weasel-words' like 'provisional'. If the race committee discovers it has made a mistake, it may correct it I strongly agree with the implication that the race committee can afford to be bold in correcting mistakes because if any boat doesn't like it, they are entitled to request redress against the correction.
Do I understand that your opinion is that when a boat is informed by hail (or, I suppose other effective means) that she was clearly over at some short time after a start with an ineffective individual recall, then she does not have 'no reason to know that she crossed the starting line early' which is the condition for redress mentioned in Case 79? I don't think that can be right. I'm not talking about egregious cases where a boat is 5 or 10 lengths over at the start, or say 2 lengths at the pin, but cases where the margin is very clear to the race committee, but not necessarily clear to the competitor. In that case, I think the boat may be entitled to redress, but the notional time taken for the boat to return and restart calculated as required by Case 31 should be adjusted so as not to include the time between the starting signal and when the boat was effectively informed that she was over.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 19 Jun 12 at 6:20pm
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You could change the results a long time after the prizes are presented and everyone has gone home - but this is perhaps not the best way to win friends and get them to come back. Personally I consider results as provisional until the time limit for lodging an appeal is past. If the boat has no reason to know she is over the line (that would be what you are talking about) then she can hope for redress, but if a boat is clearly informed that she is OCS (as was the case many years ago when recall numbers were standard practice) she must return and start correctly. If the boat could not know she was over because it was by a very narrow margin,, there was an error in the signals and she was later informed then, if redress was granted I would include the time it took for her to be informed that she was included in the redress - this is the time it took for the race committee to repair it's improper action. If the signal had been made correctly then the boat could have returned immediately. She should lose no more time than that required to return after a proper signal. ------------- Gordon |