Looks quite modern, built this century at least, some carbon bits, some smooth sit on bits, I consulted my lake guru he suggested it, whereas my forum buddy said give it a drive by, but hell it wasn't a bad deal and looked in good nick...

So flame away...

Originally posted by G.R.F. And Lord Birket, he's Lord of the Lake isn't he, even I could sail one on a frikken lake..

Think you solved your problem already

In a blow his problems are different, he can't keep the damn thing dry side up and when it goes over the centre board floats so high because of the air bags on the side he can barely reach it to right the thing which in turns tires him out quickly.

If you're looking at something with that sort of sail area why not look at a supersofa?  Not in your 2nd boat budget I suspect but the new ones look very very nice.

Agreed. Plus what Winging it said about fragile and parts. 

If they don't break good on a big sea course. 

It's a success of style over substance.  I'm not surprised that your lake guru suggested it, he is probably looking forward to watching it fall apart, fitting by fitting, while he glides past in a Solo.  No class racing to speak of and rated about the same as a Phantom and therefore a fair bit quicker than Blaze, Vareo, Supernova.  Even with a lightweight on board I would expect the Blaze to be all over it in all but the very lightest of winds.  To be anything other than a mistake, it would have to be very very cheap and come with spares!

Atrocity

sadly not for sale as 'no one is buying boats at the moment'... shame, it does look quite good fun for flat water.

I now know first hand the problems that sketching things on pads and thinking ooh why not, can bring so understand why it's taken so long for him.

Anyway back to the EPS, my feelings, if it were going to just break, it would have by now, the freeboard doesn't matter, no big waves on the Redoubt lake, I don't believe it could be faster than the Blaze and we know the Blaze is a bit of a bandido, so even if it is on a par, then great, the tubes look more comfy to sit on than the blaze racks and it has a more modern, dare I say 'Aura' like appeal, plus if the specs are to be believed it's lighter those Blazes are too heavy despite what our resident Blaze man might tell us, all dinghies are too heavy that is fact, with a few exceptions like those moths and some cherubs.

Wing wang I'm putting the Alto back on the water, got my sail man round this avo measuring for a proper chute, I've fixed up it's bottom and rubbed it down and might even stand a new kite, this EPS will 'disappear' from view and reside down the lake, no one need be any the wiser, it'll be our little secret and an Alto is not a fair swap for a C2 even if you chucked 'her indoors' and a course of hetracil in on the deal, even though I might be just what's required to put you both back on the path of true male appreciation..

Well that's my middle name girl...

 

I always thought the epsm was going to be a good boat - trouble was the RS300 was better marketed and - it would seem - a better product. Time has been the judge, and the eps was just not good enough.

How much did the EPS retail for when it was around, and how much was the 300, strikes me there's a bit more going on with the EPS in build cost terms, but back then were they both built in the UK, or were the 300's coming from South America.

It's a good looking boat, looks almost up to date, compare that to most dross that billy no mates are offered, I'll obviously have to reserve judgement til I've had a race or two in it, I still can't see how it could be quicker than a Blaze, but we'll see.

I doubt it is faster, AFAIK it's stuck with pretty much the PY it launched with because there aren't enough of them sailed to get the PY adjusted to what it should be.

Admit it, you love it because it was designed by a French windsurfer (I think).

But yes I do like it predominantly for its visual appeal, same as I did the ill fated RS100, another style over substance error for my circumstance.

That'll maybe happen through next winter, a couple of us are planning a build, tbh it put me off a bit some old fashioned coffin builder boatyard adopting it and this fulfils that essential part of my purchasing decision, in fact most peoples purchasing decisions, it's available right now, i can be on the water next week.

 The Farr is another long wait, I'm done with that and bloody things keep going wrong and in need of constant fixing, i haven't actually raced hard all year other than on my board and I only have these things to race with, no other reason.

*splutters*

it looks like a really big toilet bowl with a mast

Firstly as JimC states, every dinghy design is hideous amalgamation of complex, competing design criterion.  We can probably assume that as the market didn't accept the EPS, it was a more hideous than most.  The best we can hope for is that we find a boat which matches what we want the best, but this ultimately could be extremely frustrating as you could end up with no one else to sail against.  If you can't travel around to sail against like minded folks in class opens, you need to really ask yourself which is the worse of two evils- sailing a boat you like but have no one to properly race against or sailing in a fleet with the closest match to your physical requirements to get the closest racing.   The 'middle ground' simply doesn't work imho.

When Graeme first started dinghy sailing he was looking to get the racing bug back from the halcyon days of mass participation windsurfing events.  Now I don't think there's many active dinghies that could offer that directly, however class racing in a club is going to be far closer to this than handicap racing another 'odd' boat with a reportedly awful PY.  So Graeme needs to make the call- does he want racing, if so he needs to get a fleet boat, perhaps even the Laser with a Radial for windy weather, or he needs to travel and treat club racing as 'training'... assuming of course there is a circuit to travel for with the V-Twin, Asbo and Laser EPS.

  

http://whitefriarssc.org/gallery/index.php/Laser-EPS-Open-22nd-April-2012?page=1 - These folk seem to be enjoying them at an open last month

Looks like it'll have a useful turn of speed as and when.

 

For what it's worth I think you'll have some good fun with the EPS on the lake, certainly looks like a boat that needs to be kept bolt upright, but thats no bad thing.

 

I remember the first time I saw one, Boat Show I think, and it was so different from everything else I knew and understood that I really didnt know what to make of it, nowadays of course your getting an aweful lot of boat for not a lot of money.

 

 

 

[TUBE]oZU6qbSgCdE[/TUBE]

EPS = Equipped with Privy Seat.  Ugly as sin in the flesh.

Heavy compared to a 300, especially the silly adjustable wings.  Such a shame that they sold boats to sailors who might otherwise have bought the 300.

isnt that called a moth? why dont you get a lowrider? or just go the whole hog and begin foiling, might be as fun as windsurfing, and no rocker issues when the wind gets up ;)

edit: having watched all that video, the eps does look very fast upwind! pity about the aesthetics...

It's a shame you're so light Graeme - otherwise the 300 would teach you to sail properly and then you could diversify rather than chasing the impossible.

 

Yes it was very physical but that is why I want it. Now Graeme you are just too small and too lazy to sailwhat you call a performance boat. You want all the speed without the effort. So go and buy yourself a Firebird or a Dragonfly.

Oh, I was out today in that force 4 with 14 sg mtrs and managed to finish without a capsize, which is more than i would have achieved in the 100 with a 10.2, that's for sure.

 

I would have really struggled with the 10.2 as all I would have been doing was hanging off the side dumping main, then grannying round at the gybe mark. The reaches were too tight to carry the kite.

In really light winds the hull can stick a bit and the leech hook on both... loads of cunningham and kicker helped, as did some leeward heel, but it's a sub 1000 PY boat, so really wtf are doing sailing in really light winds?

A 70kg, short bloke using the 10.2 on the sea... 

The 10.2 did at least twist off a bit better since the longer mast made it proportionately more flexy and that did go someway to dump power, and the reason the 8.4 has anything going for it, because it was so tight leeched useless in light weather with it's stiffer mast and tight leech it makes it quite pokey in mid winds of 3 and above, so it can chuff porkers along, as long as they don't want to sail too high, which of course porkers don't, only light weights like to stuff it in a breeze, which if they do, it kills them stone dead. A more useless sail I've yet to find.

Beautiful sail? About as beautiful as that gorgeous looking helm, at least he's not all bunched up and creased quite as bad as that 8.4..

You need to pull the big head thing out of your dark place, you're only piissed cos I didn't take your advice so you could go and snaffle the buy of the frikken century...

But sadly no, I wouldn't have bought it, I'd have robbed the D.O.D. college/wedding fund and bought another Blaze.  If I had bought it no doubt I'd want to find someone to make me a new sail and that would another 800 quid.  Then sods law says the mast'll snap... that will be another 1200 quid.  And then I'll sit back, look at my bank statements and realise I've spent £3k on something worth about, well, 800 quid.  Then I'd realise I might as well have bought something that I could sail against other people.

Enjoy it & don't bend it!

I graunched the twin badly yesterday, had a really good sail, finally got to be actually trying rather than surviving, then coming ashore at low tide when the bloody rocks are at their worse I had the choice either ram the beach or be side flipped by a wave so I charged it and now I've got a bloody great hole under the nose so I'm off the water for a bit and going to have to press the Alto back into play or risk this in the sea which wasn't part of the plan.

As a footnote the bloke who bought my Blaze, helped me up the beach interesting to note, he was back, boat in the park and changed time I finished..

One thing I found out eventually yesterday was it is so nose heavy, it takes two to get it onto the aft section so it releases, I physically don't have the weight to counterbalance the power going through the rig so here I am still challenged by my physique.

There is so much still to do, maybe moving the mast step further forward will give me increased leverage aft, I can't remember where we had it when we first had that blistering sail down in Calshot, but it feels like such a different boat now, not sure what they did when they took it back for 'finishing' and it feels so much heavier with whatever they coated it with.

The fact is it does work but I'm not sure where to go with it now, it needs a repair, I haven't dared look to see just how bad as the graunch looks fairly Titanic, a bloody great sharp rock ran down a fair chunk of the nose, maybe it's time to let someone professional have a solid look and fit it out properly rather than me pfaffing around trial and error, either way it's not done just yet and I'm off the water for another two to three weeks at weekends, what with one thing or another to do with work, so a little thing down the lake for weekday nights will be just the ticket to get my fix.

 

I think you have summed up your problem right there. You said almost the same thing in your comments about the 100.

So what should  I do then? Give up, leave sailing dinghies to the bigger boys?

Or figure out something that suits me and if I can't find it then make it?

don't worry, Graeme doesn't use the kicker...

Haven't really had much chance to go over it and put it together, cast a cursory glance over it during the handover and it's in OK condition considering how old it is, it's got a Musto sail, carbon mast the sit on bits perhaps need a bit of a clean, there are no big chunks out of the foils (which there soon will be once I get control (lack) of it,) and I'm eagerly looking forward to christening it down the lake on wednesday.

I've got the V twin back up home, stripped and upended, the bottom is a bloody awful mess, not sure what to do with it, patch it up or go for a complete carve up and try to lighten it and modify it so if it did ever go over again I could right it.

 

Glad you are happy with the EPS, be interested to here how you get on.  As for the V-Twin, whats happened to it?  Is it the Shingle? 

Well once upon a time the legend went Musto & Hyde, then they split Musto to become a purveyor of clothes and crap skiffs and Hyde continued with sails I guess, so what are you saying because it has the wrong logo I get a free replacement sail, how kewell would that be?

I want to take it out today, but first you won't believe the hoops you have to jump through to join our little local lake sailing club, unfortunately the water they are on is owned by a psycho ex Aggregate company who are still totally freaked out because one of their number (Typical Darwin Dinghyist) electrocuted himself on an overhead power cable 30 years ago, trolleying his dinghy to the water presumably the wrong way, it was that long ago, nothing surprised us back in those days as to what dinghy sailors do to themselves it's a miracle any still survive...

Anyway they make it very difficult for new sailors to join.

They charged me £12.10 to get across that crap old Severne bridge, riddled with pot holes, how dare they? It's outrageous! No wonder no one wants to go to wales, interesting it's free the other way. Then I always say the best thing to come out of wales is the road to London.

sounds like the perfect location for a new Team 15 kite racing academy....

It's a shame they didn't carry on with it, by comparison with a lot of the agricultural old dross serving as sail bound coffins, it's got a lot going for it.

i like the smooth action of the racks, compare that with the tugging and graunching of the Blaze mismatched tubing which never did quite fit, I like the whole visual, the smooth flowing stern has a modern air to it, in a turn of the century style.

With the racks right out it's 2-20 wide, should be enough even for little old me to hold down the nine and a half metre sail, I haven't stuck the sail up, it's quite tired, the whole boat is tired, nothings broke but its seen better days, i shall tart up where i can some new fittings here and there and there are the usual dinghyists fascination with electrical and gaffer tape everywhere, pikeys, all dingho's are water pikeys, no bloody finesse, 'oribble sticky tape everywhere, not sure what it's there for yet before i pull it all off.

I had a sit in it, lovely sailing position, need to tighten down the footstraps, but won't do that til I know where I'm going to end up sitting, it says on a sign up front it'll take two, and with a maximum load of 160kg so i shall see if i can encourage the final daughter of darkness back onto the water in it, maybe down the lake out of the way of dr death (our resident none rule observing crash happy surgeon) she'll have another go, she got quite put off by dr death ramming us at the windward mark when she was younger.

So, I'm still cautiously optimistic my little EPS will be just the ticket for the lake and just a tad sad it wasn't commercially successful. Probably more the market than the boat, what's the point of making something nice for a bunch of sad muppets who think it's fine to keep using old streaker/solo/insert appropriate ageing class, than moving with the times.

Equipped with privy seat - but most bogs would sail better!

The truth is, at 60-odd kilos, the perfect lake boat is probably Laser's most successful product; at least you can change down to a radial if it's windy and finally the PN looks like it favours the middle ground, rather than the elite.

There were signs with superfluous illiterate twaddle writ large upon them, there were sheep er everywhere, holding up traffic and all the menfolk wore wellies (not yellow either), the only saving grace of the experience, other than a great days riding and the boat exchange (It's the second boat I've bought from llandegford res) was a visit to an ale house, a round of drinks for four of us accompanied by nobbies finest nuts cost less than 14 quid, that wouldn't cover two of us down our way..

We were drinking pints, not halves

I'ts quite a lively light touch fella, something about it suggests male not female, not quite sure why, I know I'm going to end up swimming from it at some point. I didn't set the wings far out since it was fairly light barely 1 with gusts of 2 and quite a dense mist, he cuts a fine dash though, kept flat and with my weight forward hardly a noise or swirl off the stern. It hunts lifts nicely and off wind doesn't look like it's going to like being sailed sideways to run by the lee due to the excess 'noise' the stern kicks up if a quarter is dropped.

Quite a pokey sail, it set well enough, it's a tad tired, but the outhaul is routed forward down to the foredeck and the first decent outhaul control i think I've ever come across, The kicker as it was set up by the previous owner bottomed out way before the point i think I'd like it, so i've adjusted that for later once i got ashore. The cunningham is also not difficult to access.

I'm not enamoured with centre sheeting any more on a single hander I get confused with what to do with the sheet as i tack and it's got one of those too long wiggle stick things, anyway first sail, I'm quite plea with my new acquisition.

It says it's a category C boat according to the RYA, what does that mean?

Category C - Inshore: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2m may be experienced.

I thought it might have been a guide the RYA had come up with as to the difficulty rating of a given craft, it's quite a wobble bottom affair so not the shoe in I thought at first it might be, a bit trickier than a blaze, then I've probably been de sensitised by sailing the twin, I'll know tomorrow when i get back in the Alto. 

Connect to my comments on Seamanship on the V-Twin thread.  Why would you do that?

No wonder you break your boats on the foreshore.

Do us all a favour - stop racing  hanging around with the racers on a course and do a L2 dinghy course!

So none other than me showed up, I did what I needed to do which was to get a feel for my new toy, which very soon becomes boring, sailing around every buoy at every point of sailng just to check how the boat goes.

The wiggle stick thing, I've spent 8 years messing with all manner of them some go one way others go another, the thing I've found most convenient is none of that string and jamming stuff in the middle of the boat so I just charge through leaving the stick thing in the wrong hand reversed until I've settled on the new tack, sometimes it's easy sometimes rope gets in the way, some boats with long sticks won't let you do that so you have to swing the big stick bit outboard round the back, this new boat is a cross between the two so I haven't settled on a comfy way to do it without having to think about it or use my teeth.

All will be well tonight, the Alto goes back on the water with it's new bright red spinny sock, God will be back in his heaven and I shall be nearer the front of the fleet, new crew permitting.

and there is lies the greatest problem of all, failure to accept and commit.

just http://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=40317&cg=4&mc=31&cct=3&sc=68 - buy them , wear them with pride and walk up to your new bitch, slap her and tell her who's boss.

only once you've trod the path to the light, you will begin to breakthrough the barriers dinghy sailing seems to construct around you.

as for not showing up, I went to our pond last night, greeted by a zephyr, so I decided not a fair trial.  I watched the Lasers and Flying Fifteens go round the course, it looked frustrating, but there were glimmers of hope and excitement as they bunched around the marks and got some semblance of racing in.

Sunny-ish green grass, a calm launch site, what could possibly go wrong? I went to put my clarkes specials on then thought don't be a wuss, (I'd left my split ties down the club on Tuesday night) bare feet in trainers they wouldn't look cool, (even though there is no one watching, I would know I'd worn them so would be damned forever), didn't think about the ski slope brush matt, but whatever it was only a temporary glitch, I got it off eventually even though I should probably have gone round a bit and launched it sideways on. It does fall over though and those wings have a bit of windage even in that light breeze, so a good heads up for later possibly more testing conditions..

Probably a class that could have done what the Blaze class did with their 'X' option.

I'll probably have a differing opinion once I've used it in a bit of breeze, it is a very full cut and 'pokey' sail, which at only 4 battens on a 9.4 in windsurfing terms would be a bit light on stability. I haven't tried to see how it depowers, it's quite a chunky mast as well.  I shall bung some fast pins on the shrouds to see what mast rake i can achieve. I did notice somewhere, think it was ebay, there is a small sail option, which could be a consideration, I'm not sure how much i want to invest in this, it is a bit of a diversion from what i normally do and so far has turned out to be a waste of time. If they don't get a summer wednesday evening series going then it'll be on ice until next winter, nice as the lake is, the best action to be had in the summer is on the sea imv and the owner of my old Blaze has thwacked a verbal Gauntlet about my chops.

+1... the grass ain't greener inland.

and btw, your mate will no doubt own you in a blaze over that in all-but the lightest of puff.

Go and sit in the corner and wear this cap.

It is the sweetest thing to sail, goes really well and for this sort of environment, pretty close to perfect. It's fast, comfortable, manoeuvrable, and a very enjoyable ride, my only issues are personal lack of routine in what to do with the wiggle stick and excess sheet during tacks and wether to go round the back or the front.

I finally got a race today, well I wasn't quite there in time for the start, the gun went as I came out of the changing room with the boat still on the trailer, so i was a couple of minutes behind after i set off ofter the small fleet of Splash, Streakers, Laser, Supernova and a Scorpion. I managed to end up third over the water, didn't quite manage to catch the Laser, he's a club mate from Hythe, but got close enough to know I'd finished in a shorter time given the two or three minute start they'd had.

Although it's a bit tippy lively I feel it's a more comfortable boat than the Blaze and less ponderous to tack, I must get it to Hythe some time to take my old Blaze on and see how I fare, reckon I'll be in with a shout against my chum in his Phantom as well, who knows, it'll probably be an entirely different story on the sea.

I love the smooth quiet wake off the stern, I like the sail (responds well to kicker input which I left on since I was seeking power in the force 2-3 we had playing), I love the quick rigging and the ball race mast assembly. I like the way the bow knifes through the water and the way you can change the pitch of the boat by moving fore and aft, it has the sweetest of rockers.

I seriously think this is a little golden nugget ignored in the back eddy of a stream of poor boats that were obviously either better priced or marketed. It's got everything one could need, adjustability in the seating arrangement, speed and comfort a great boat, I'm really quite pleased with it perfect for the lake.

 

Originally posted by G.R.F. Launched it this avo after much pratting about putting it together, then putting it together with the string bits where they probably should be, and sail no's and GBR first time I've ever put those initials on a rig, prefering the old K prefix. It was blowing a two to three with puffs from the East with sunshine, about as benign conditions as Hythe delivers, a fabulous day. Ruined only by bending to do something stupid and putting my back out, still not to worry. I could wax poetical about if for reams, but in brief it's exactly what I want in a boat, everything is exactly where you want it, there are so many extra nice touches, the slot flusher what a cool idea that is, the mast being foam filled, it's even got bits of string under the gunwhales against the day it falls over. A truly well sorted boat, well balanced, lively if you're doing it wrong then you do it right you know instantly, very input is rewarded, every mistake is punished however so it's not a beginners tool. There's no way I'd appreciate this if I hadn't trodden the path I have with all those other boats, it feels like a reward for all that effort, almost feels like a boat made just for me.. Found myself getting flash, spinnaker running it in close to the beach and gybing round one of the T15 buoys with the kite up, damn how easy is that without a forestay, almost self gybing spinnaker. Then nearly hitting the rock groin cos i can't hold it to high so had to do and emergency drop, which is a piece of cake. Hoist and drop can both be done either holding onto the wiggle stick (carbon indeed) or doing the Musto knee bent shuffle (quicker), only fault I found, during a gybe I slipped back into the boat on a shiney bit, that will get some bling stomp traction addition in due course. All in all I love it love it love it, totally dialed at this point one could almost say flawless, but I dare say I'll find something, but not today.

Yes, I must be careful about waxing poetic too soon, but I think there is less to go wrong with the EPS and I don't think I'll have any trouble getting back into it if I fall out, unlike both the RS100 and ironically the thing I built to replace it, neither can be reliably sailed alone without rescue cover.

Plus the EPS has less of a punishing environment to deal with, easy launches, flat water, round the cans, the 100 would probably be equally suited but impossibly handicapped for the sort of racing they do on the lake, it's not just the boat, it's the task required of it that match so well.

Would I be as happy with it on the sea, I can't tell at this stage, it sits very low in the water, the hull bit you get the sensation of being much higher up on those racks, will it bury it's nose in the first wave it meets, I actually think its rocker might deal with them quite well, waves, my Laser club mate took it for a spin after the race and was sat too far back as he came past one time and you could see the entire front half of the boat right back to the mast foot, was clear of the water, I must have a 'flip it over' study of what's going on underneath, whatever it is, it works quite well, nicest boat rocker I've come across.

I do miss the 100's spinnaker, though, that part of it was an absolute joy, if you could put the top bit of the 100 onto the bottom of this EPS then you might have something...

Well I noted it had turned a tad more favourable at 1025 which is still some way to go compared with the Blaze which I think speed wise it will probably turn out to be about the same, I wonder why they went for such a fast handicap or was it marketing in an attempt to appear to be in the same ball park as the RS300. I've rarely seen that sailed to anywhere close to its handicap on the sea, inland is probably another story. I know the 300 has it's fanboys here and having never sailed it and only rarely sailed against it, I cant really comment only to note it reminded me of windsurfing in its short lived Div 2 phase, very impractical for a sea dweller.

Anyway I do only race for fun, I'd be lying if I said I didn't like winning, but it's not as important these days as once it was, If I wanted just to race for winnings sake then a Bandit Epoxy Streaker would almost certainly deliver that, or a Phantom and just pick my conditions. I wanted something that can still be bested by a good laser sailor which we have a couple of locally yet has a turn of speed to make up for my incompetent boat handling moments and now I think I have it.

looking at it from up the chuff, I reckon you'd have something that would pass off very easily as a possible prototype for the Devoti One.  

My first comment on the D-One... more EPS than MPS!!!