SCHRS
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: Dinghy multihulls
Forum Discription: For those who prefer two (or more) hulls to one!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9055
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 2:34pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: SCHRS
Posted By: catmandoo
Subject: SCHRS
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 1:45pm
Now that RYA has published 2012 ratings , I would hope that SCHRS do same for us cats , my clubs racing kicks of 1st April and it would be nice to start off the season with ratings that can be used all year , there isnt any news on SCHRS site , but cat sailing does seem to be an undercover dark art  Many thanks to those working away in the background on this ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: Multiplex
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 5:36pm
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Hi. Anyone got an address for Nick Dewhirst please? I just keep being returned when I use the form on the SHCRS site! Thx! Gordon. |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 9:45pm
Posted By: Nacraman
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 9:48pm
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New SCHRS table of revised ratings due on website very, very soon.... ------------- "God bless those Pagans"-H.J.Simpson "Beer, now there's a temporary solution"-H.J.Simpson http://www.nacra.co.uk - www.nacra.co.uk |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 9:56pm
Oh, sorry am I wrong then?
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Posted By: Nacraman
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 7:38am
You are right, but the formula has been revised... ------------- "God bless those Pagans"-H.J.Simpson "Beer, now there's a temporary solution"-H.J.Simpson http://www.nacra.co.uk - www.nacra.co.uk |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 8:34am
is pretty much set in stone... "
Oh I wish !!!
 , (but thats another story ) the system administrators of SCHRS are constantly evaluating their formula , fine tuning and "improving " as and when they see fit , boats evolve , new features appear, and as enlightened administrators they realise no handicapping sytem can be perfect so strive to iron out irregularities once sufficient data has proved discrepancies , these rule changes which change ratings , historically have been introduced , logically at the begining of a season .
As a performance indicator of the rule , Im sure that race results , times etc are heavily scrutinised and evaluated with much consideration .
This isnt the first update to the rule , i had a wee inkling ( read insight ) that another was to be published alongside updated ratings hence my request .
No measurement rule I know of "is set in stone " our fellow lead mine sailors using irc will attest this , with RORC updating and fine tuning as circumstance require .
Many thanks to all that do the number crunching and head scratching in the persuit of providing a fair system for all in racing , cats , leadmines etc .
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Posted By: Owenfackrell
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 8:38am
| It is intresting (to me anyway) that the offical py for the dart 18 and the Hobbie 16 have them close but with the Hobbie slightly higher but SCHRS has them the other away around and much further apart. Is it just that they don't sail the way the formula works it out in the uk or is it something else? |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:07am
I learnt from a post on the sprint15 forum that they may be looking at a more favourable rating allowance for boats that have skegs rather than centre/daggerboards i.e. Dart18 / Sprint15.
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Posted By: Big-C
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:13am
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I have a feeling curved boards and square tops are going to play a major part in the revisions
------------- Little America's Cup C-Class K19 Emma Hamilton A-Class Unicorn 1085 Merlin Rocket NSM2 SeaRay 260 OV |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 8:02pm
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Loads been done; hopefully on the site in the next week or so. Much work done. I just got to comment this time around; others did all the work. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 6:59pm
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I see that the SCHRS rating changes have now been posted. Taking a casual look around the SCHRS ratings on common cats we see: Dart 18 rating has changed from 1.181 to 1.210 a change of plus 2.5% Dart 18 (S/H) rating has changed from 1.186 to 1.237 a change of plus 4.3% Dart 16X rating has changed from 1.226 to 1.237 a change of plus 0.9% F18 rating has changed from 1.000 to .966 a change of minus 3.4% F16 rating has changed from 1.008 to 0.989 a change of minus 1.2% Prindle 15 rating has changed from 1.206 to 1.275 a change of plus 5.7% ( the biggest I noticed) ShadowX rating has changed from 1.061 to 1.076 a change of plus 1.4% Spitfire rating has changed from 1.041 to 1.033 a change of minus 0.08% Topaz14Xtreme rating has changed from 1.238 to 1.233 a change of minus 0.04% Inter17(19M2) rating has changed from 1.065 to 1.073 a change of plus 0.08% Catapult rating has changed from 1.239 to 1.280 a change of plus 3.3% HurricaneSX rating has changed from 1.006 to 1.019 a change of plus 1.3% Standard Sprint 15 rating has changed from 1.32 to 1.376 a change of plus 4.2% Sprint 15 Sport mode rating has changed from 1.218 to 1.258 a change of plus 3.4% So in general dagger board cats with spinnakers get lower (faster) ratings while unarig skeg cats get bigger (slower) ratings. Looks good in the main, I guess time will tell. Well done to the SCHRS committee Cheers Bob |
Posted By: Big-C
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 8:01pm
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All looks good although at least one error seems to have crept in
It appears my Unicorn has gone all modern and acquired an 800 mm square top main without me noticing - according to the data used to calculate its rating anyway ------------- Little America's Cup C-Class K19 Emma Hamilton A-Class Unicorn 1085 Merlin Rocket NSM2 SeaRay 260 OV |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 16 Mar 12 at 12:42pm
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The SCHRS PY lookalike page needs to be treated with caution. It has not been updated to reflect the 2012 RYA PNs and the conversion factor is now a poor fit to the data with the new formula and the new RYA values.
Cheers
Bob
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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 16 Mar 12 at 2:45pm
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I rarely do handicapp events (apart from the piers race) so it dosent really affect me but how can the formula fleets (F16 and F18) get rated on mass? Shouldnt they be done indvidually? a viper is very different to a falcon or stealth all f16s. likewise a hawk, infusion, wildcat etc all f18s and all very different. oli
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Posted By: TomB
Date Posted: 16 Mar 12 at 5:47pm
They are rated on mass because even though the different designs perform differently, they should all be the same speed, the principle behind the Formula system. If you give a Nacra Infusion a different rating to a Wildcat, then you are suggesting that they are different speeds, which may be the case, but in theory they should be the same. This is of course my take on the raised point. Happy to be corrected! ------------- 49er 884 "its win or swim attitude boys" -awesome aussie skiff commentator |
Posted By: gary145
Date Posted: 20 Mar 12 at 7:48pm
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as I understand it they are all different (some may be faster) but they fit within the rules of 'the formula' so can race boat for boat against each other. Therefore they have the same rating within the formula. ------------- |
Posted By: gary145
Date Posted: 20 Mar 12 at 7:59pm
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help me out, i'm confused. PY number for Spitfire for 2012? 1.033 x 692.7 = 715 is that right? Thats a better rating than last year (712) ------------- |
Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 21 Mar 12 at 1:46pm
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so my ratings worked out on what it could measure rather than what it actually measures. sorry still dont get it.
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Posted By: farc anal
Date Posted: 21 Mar 12 at 2:27pm
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Sounds like f18's, f16s should be added to the boats requiring individual handicaps like they suggest for the A class cats, ie if you aren't running a state of the art "f variant you may be better to get your individual measurement carried out , unfortunately the online calculator has not been updated as yet , nor how to measure mainsail . It's also interesting to note that whilst schrs uk accept single handed spinnaker cats are slower than there counterpart two man variants they still get a punitive rating the same as two man boat , this would also suggest that single spin boats without a two man counterpart are also harshly penalised. Perhaps we're heading down the line of schrs producing a handicap rating which then could be fine tuned by Rya s reporting system , would be interesting to see what ratings that would throw up , Rya can use their system to analyse and produce revised schrs ratings , if asked, and I know they would be delighted to do so . However many thanks to all who produces these rules , it is appreciated that it takes immense commitment and time , hopefully comments that are made can be taken as constructive observation from those out with "the woods " |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 21 Mar 12 at 9:38pm
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I can answer the questions regarding F18 / 16 and the A classes..... The formula (16 /18) boats are blanket rated on the max-min of the class rules were they meet the rating points of the rule (lenght; width; sail areas etc). Where the item is not rated (Board's for example) then the team took a decision on the "current best practice within the fleet" to get a factor/measurement. The A class is even more difficult as many items within the class are not controlled (luff length being critical for a rating; the A was free and I believe may now have some limits.....) So; the A class has a number of ratings as there may be vast differences. these are just some of the options; As stated by farc anal; in theory all A's could have a different rating. IF you want to claim a "boat" rating (for say a Tiger) you need to get the boat formally measured to get a rating other than the blanket F18. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 22 Mar 12 at 7:03pm
| Cheers for the answer simon, so just to clarify the whole fleet gets hammered because the latest nacras have long boards even though they make up about 5per cent of the countries fleet. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 25 Mar 12 at 11:05pm
Kinda, The guys chose current "winning" boat; not the newest. I think the plates are based on the latest Hobie Wildcat. Best check with Will. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: farc anal
Date Posted: 26 Mar 12 at 8:28am
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Ah so If the rating is based on sub optimal data such as centreboards and even mainsail top width for example , a formula boat such as an infusion with long boards (as you suggest above ) enters a handicap race , it shall have them remeasured and a new rating calculated as per the rules of schrs . Eu cat II tapes at dawn anyone ;)
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Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 26 Mar 12 at 10:19am
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mmm , looking at f16 rating there cant be many sailing with .935 square tops more like 1.00m . guess they will need remeasuring and recalculated too . Thinking of renaming my boat "lucky white heather ", ive just put an even longer square top on this year hopeless attempt to get near competitive , but as this is now heavily penalised as used a a fudge factor to try and sort f18 ratings out , I expect my rating to be relatively worse than ever . I wonder too if they took into account the height of the square top as this must relatively change things , other than the origonal input to calculation for luff length , ie would square top of same length inccur same penalty , if it was say a metre lower down ?? am guessing if folks are to sail within schrs rules theres going to be a lot of re measuring going on, for those with measurements exceeding published data it is a requirement of the rule , and those penalised as less than optimal would be in best interest .such as may be the case for oz . by the way oz have you checked your square top length relative to the dimension rated , you may be taking a hit here too ? I remember speaking to Robin Smith in my 5.9 days and he was saying that one 5.9 he bought was a dog , after checking everything out found no differences till he weighed it , it was considerably heavier than his old boat , he then weighed a few 5.9s and found a range (i hazily remember ) of an astonishing 30 kgs (or at least a substantial margin) from lightest to heaviest , try putting that in schrs formula .makes you think . He mentioned that he found lost tools encased in resin lying in one 5.9 !!!!!!!! I'm guessing oz has opened a can of whoop ass worms here . ------------- |
Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 26 Mar 12 at 8:57pm
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like i said in my first post it dosent really affect me that much as i do very little handicap racing (certanly not enough to get my boat remeasured) and also as i am happy enough to sail boat on boat at open meetings i dont really have a problem sailing off the same rating at the piers etc. also all handicap systems are on to a hidding into nothing anyway unless you take into account the weather sea state etc. for example when i had my aclass i was more than happy if the beat was against the tide but if the wind was the other way round you basically had no chance against the kite boats. coupled with variable weights as mentioned above in one design fleets the ratings bods like simon can only do their best. thanks must go to them for doing such a hard job (i wouldnt want to do it)
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Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 26 Mar 12 at 10:06pm
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Your lucky re class racing , we're lucky we ve got schrs and that they do respond to feedback and continually improve the formula, and for the above eventualities the rule does cater for. Not there yet for us singlehanders but moving in right direction ------------- |
Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 27 Mar 12 at 8:16am
| Tbh mark thats the main reasons why i got rid of the A i was fed up with the handicap thing, it just depended on conditions as to who one. No ones fault just how it is. |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 27 Mar 12 at 2:52pm
Yes I know where your coming from , really enjoyed my H5.9 days and near class racing , but crew leaving and no prospect of a replacement saw me reurn to singlehanding as you know , still i've always been handicapped with my incredible bulk 
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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 27 Mar 12 at 6:08pm
| my main handicapp is an oustanding lack of talent otherwise i think i could have made it as a pro. |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 27 Mar 12 at 10:46pm
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Bobby our local dart sailor is outstanding in his field ! Not much good when we have a race on Bliddy farmers  ------------- |
Posted By: Dermot M
Date Posted: 23 May 12 at 12:08am
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All my cat
racing in I am
wondering why the Hurricane 5.9 SX at the Bala Cat Open was rated at 1.019 on
the 7th May ? ------------- Dermot Shadow 075 |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:37am
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Good spot Dermot. I can't imagine that Andrew and Cat would have let that pass though. Also, shouldnt JT be picking up a string of bullets on those numbers rather than the mixed bag he actually got? Love to know the answer though. Keep me in touch. (Well done for Carlingford btw. Just my luck that you found your form on a weekend where I'd got my mojo back too.) ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: Dermot M
Date Posted: 24 May 12 at 11:23pm
Thanks Dave. Seeing that you mention Andrew, I see that the F18 number is also wrong - in the wrong direction. It should be 0.966, which would give them more time - very odd  I see that 2 other cats are called F20, but have the Nacra 6 SE number - maybe that's what they are. ------------- Dermot Shadow 075 |