Single handed shortlist - longer
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9054
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 12:50am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Single handed shortlist - longer
Posted By: Beardy
Subject: Single handed shortlist - longer
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:56am
After a day at the Dinghy show with a very patient mate, I've now got a longer short list than I had before I went My main concern was (and still is) my bulk, which at 111kg+ is not inconsiderable. Then there is my irrational prejudice against dagger boards. But as I went round the show, it occured to me that given that it's a few years since I sailed in anger, worrying about the optimum competitive weight is a bit obsessive at the moment  And a number of people worked hard to disabuse me of my dagger board obsession.As I WILL be sailing predominantly on the River Deben at Woodbridge, the boat I really covert really is impractical, so with a heavy heart, I have removed the International Canoe from my short list  So starting with the weight optimised boats, but in no particular order we have
------------- sorting my life out, one shed at at time |
Replies:
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:16pm
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the phantom does not always have a split floor,as the one did on the stand. The majority plastic ones have a full floor front to back. The wooden ones are a mixture of full deep cockpit or full false floor. That one is a new idea by James Jarvey to allow those people who's knees can't quite take it some extra space in the cockpit. It's mot obligatory. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:21pm
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Just a comment about the Finn: It hasn't got a steel plate, it's alloy so only weighs about 11 -13kg. You can also pick up an old one for under £1k and it will give you a good idea if you like it. They stay in good shape for ever because they're not lightly built! ------------- PeterV Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29 Warsash |
Posted By: Beardy
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:26pm
To be honest MaxiB I doubt I'll be able to afford a new boat with the split floor in any case :) As an aside, I was wondering how flexible the rules were about the false floor and if I got an older wooden one, could mess around with it to suit my needs and aesthetic view :) ------------- sorting my life out, one shed at at time |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:30pm
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I'd go for the Finn, I think. Buy an old GRP one with a tin rig and go an play.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 1:02pm
pretty flexible. In fact I dont think that there are any on the inside of the cockpit. There ate Bern plenty of versions with no false floor, half false floor and full false floor (self drainers). You can pretty well do what you want. there is a copy of the full measurement forms in the downloads section of the class website you could analyse to see what you can do. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:23pm
+1 ... you can get a lot of boat for your dough with a Finn |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 1:04pm
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If I were you I would look at what boats are sailed locally and buy the most suitable of them. If you are just back sailing after time off you will learn much more in a close fleet and have like minded people to encourage you and give you tips. That said a Streaker may be a bit small for you. If there is nothing else try and make sure your boat of choice has a PY as near as possible to a class that is popular locally, at least that will ensure you have a close race with someone. Dont they have a fleet of OKs near you? EDIT: All too often on this forum people are encouraged to go for the boat that suits them perfectly rather than one with a big local fleet, I think this is great advise if you just want to go for a blast but in my opinion if you enjoy the competitive side of sailing then you will get more enjoyment/cameraderie out of sailing in a fleet. This is particularly important if you are new to sailing, you start out finishing 1 minute behind the others, as you progress you get better and no longer finish last, then as you learn more you can see how you progress up the fleet, you will be able to see real progress which should motivate you to get out and sail more. Most Laser sailors will admit that it isnt the best boat to sail for sailings sake but the racing is very enjoyable as there are lots at most clubs. You say you have sailed in the past, you must have dropped out for a reason, just have a think about what motivates you to start sailing again before deciding which boat you want. This opinion isnt what is voiced on this forum much, hence the fact that the PY debates on this forum happen all the time because they are all sailing boats very well suited to the different individual. All too often at my club a new member turns up with a new class of boat, he sails regularly for about a year and slowly sails less and less as the years progress and then in 5 years time the boat is covered in nettles, I havent seen this behaviour as much with new members who join into an existing class. Just my thoughts….. |
Posted By: stuie
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 1:28pm
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I love the NOva but at 85-90kg i am about as heavy as you want. 300 - u are the right weight but the boat is a beast - you'll be comfy for less than a second before it bites you. look at the 100 instead. solution - you are much to heavy. ------------- supernova 1019 |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 1:42pm
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At face value and 111kg+, I would say an old Finn is your best bet. There's an old one on ebay right now.
Blaze will certainly carry the weight, but would benefit from a Halo rig.
Streaker, Supernova and Solution would be a very tight squeeze and would struggle with the weight so I would cross them off.
How about an OK? again pushing the weight boundary but I'd have thought it would cope better than the three S's above... or how about even a Solo?
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 2:03pm
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yes a Finn might be good, but it will weigh at least 130kgs which is a fair lump to drag around the boat park. The phantom will carry the weight too and is less than half the weight ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 2:12pm
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To our knowledge the heaviest Halo owner is 127kg ..... and if you are under high nineties don't even consider it unless you want to develop a 'light wind special' reputation only. It was developed specifically to make being heavier a real advantage. You in fact have a reasonable amount of choice so maybe try a few alternatives out first. The various CA's will be very helpful as ever if approached. Mike L. |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 2:22pm
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arrange a big family reunion, ply them with booze and then grease the steps on the way out.... after that, a Devoti D-1 can be yours for £8k these days and to be honest, it would probably be a better weight carrier than a 100. ------------- |
Posted By: Beardy
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 2:26pm
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Thanks for all the feedback, both on and off forum, it's all helpful and interesting.
I'm going to have to have a look at the local fleet again, to see what else is in the boat park. At the moment I'm thinking either the phantom or the Blaze (with an eye on getting a halo rig later) but to the best of my knowledge, I would be the first with either at the club. I'm not sure how much of a problem this will be just now though. Of course, if I could lose 4 stone, then I'd be just a bit to heavy for the Streaker and it would be a no brainer. At 18st it'd be a no hoper :( Ah well, better go, the nurse will be along shortly. ------------- sorting my life out, one shed at at time |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 3:10pm
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In our club i normally find that if something looks good and does ok on handicap against the others then they will follow and buy the same i know if i fancy another hiking boat then i would go for the blaze i am 95 kgs and if i wanted a single sail trap boat then it would be either the contender or the 600 like i have now also i am 6ft 3" so dont have much problem with getting the lard over the side as they say ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 3:18pm
| In your position I would buy a Finn, because around here there are some good finn sailors to learn from. I find duelling against sailors I respect way more rewarding than worrying about PY's. |
Posted By: Beardy
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 6:54pm
My main worry with the Finn is its reputation for being a boat that is difficult ult to sail fast and unless you are 'on it' you just won't be even close to competitive. And given that Ingram is a Finn sailor at our club, I'd have to be on the plus side of competiive to be in a duel there. And I believe that another of our Finn sailors is an ex-scout of mine, and I couldn't possible have him beat me every week. ------------- sorting my life out, one shed at at time |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 7:04pm
| No, I'm south coast. There are some good Finn sailors and some very very good ones around Chichester Harbour. I don't know where my nearest phantom fleet is. Lots of Solos to race against, but you might be a bit big? (I prefer to be at light end of a boat's weight range if possible). Rumours of D1's arriving at Lymington, wich used to have big blaze contingent. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 7:49pm
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Sounds like that there are a couple of good Finn sailors to chase, and they will, I'm sure, give advice on how to get the most out of the boat, in order to get more competition? Almost any boat (in fact, all boats) are ard to get the final bit of speed out of. I don't think the Finn would be worse than any other, once you've had the settings explained to you.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 8:09pm
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But Beardy, the east coast has a great Phantom circuit, check out the website. If you want to only stay at the club fine, but you'll struggle to get better away racing in a singlehander over there. There is an open on at Alton Water on the 25th March, with training on the 24th. Might be worth a visit and see what you think after talking to the guys. As for being at the lighter end of a boat weight range RS400atC, well at 11kgs Beardy is going to be at the top end really, and as I am at the same sort of weight I think that I am qualified to comment. I have no problems in getting the Phantom powered up in the lighter stuff and still do relatively well. It has to be said that I will struggle to beat the lightweights in a force 1-2 but that sort of racing ain't my favourite anyway and I tend to not go out in it. We have also had people upto 120kgs and be very competitive, so I think that this is something that can be ignored to be honest
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Mar 12 at 8:50am
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Funny how this thread has come down to the Finn or the Phantom. I guess that whilst the Halo is out there, it may, even with a donor hull, be too expensive as a boat to get back into things with, and there really aren't any other good weight carriers out there. The Megabyte never really made a dent in the market (though 2 may be coming to Whitefriars for some coaching in a couple of weeks), so maybe between them the Finn and Phantom offer everything needed in big single sailed singlehanders? All Beardy can do now is go sailing in both, really, and decide which is for him, or if neither, think laterally, find a small crew and go 2 handed sailing! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 08 Mar 12 at 9:19am
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Hi Rupert
your wrong, at his size find a good helm and get a FD great boat for larger crews and enough strings to play with. I am same weight range as Beardy and have crewed 505, FD Osprey and helmed rs400 and now the Phantom which I think is great for people of a respectable size. If you can afford an epoxy boat do. I had a Lightweight grp boat and it was a mistake. Have a look at the website for advice. What ever you buy just get out there and sail as much as you can dont just race. an hour spent doing tacking and gybing practice really helps. Good luck Gordon. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Mar 12 at 9:24am
Personally I could never recommend that as a singlehander. |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 08 Mar 12 at 9:44am
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Hi Jim c
see the last paragraph of the reply before to make sense of my comment. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Beardy
Date Posted: 08 Mar 12 at 11:01am
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In my lighter days I used to crew a Fireball, but as we were both poor apprentices[1] we could only afford an old wooden boat with blown out sails. My helm got fed up of being mid fleet, so he sold out and bought a Laser. That's when I learnt the join of single-handed sailing! 1. if that doesn't date it, then I don't know what would :) ------------- sorting my life out, one shed at at time |
Posted By: WOMBAT30
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 2:37am
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Hello I am i a similar position. Larger bloke, and have been out of proper sailing since 2007. Since then i have got a bit larger, due to lack of proper exercise and sat behind a desk for anywhere between 10-15 hours a day. Personally i do not see this as an excuse. Before i drifted out of sailing my weight varied bewtwwen 90-100kg which put me at the top end of most of the mentioned classes. I am now currently about 110kg, which puts me outside of everything but Halo (where's the fleet?), Phantom (good one is out of my price range), Finn (even worse than Phantom). If money wasn't the issue i would go for a Phantom, purely because they are a great boat sail, especially for my size but are also an amateur class with an excellent CA and open series. Maybe over time a D1 could intice me. I am looking to get back into saling this year and am trying to work out my best options. With the right crew to complement/counteract my bulk double handers give me more options, however, having spent the last 5 years chasing promotions and becoming a bit of a workaholic (to quote my girlfriend) i do not think i could guarantee straight away that i could commit enough guaranteed weekends to an enthusiastic crew. With this in mind i feel my only option is a singlehander. Previosly most people have said that xyz boats are not suitable so do not get them. Buy an older example of a boat suitable to your size. In my opinion this is good and bad advice. If a £1000 Phantom was competitive then why are no people with any competitive aspirations sailing them?.... simple answer is because a £1000 Phantom will not be as competeive as a £6000 with a similar sailer. But i don't think anyone would expect it to. With my own personnal circumstance i have been looking at several things and one class that is interesting me due to locality of local fleets and initial purchase price is the supernova. I am looking at this for various reasons. 1) My budget is £1k - £2k at present. 2) Localish fleets at nice lookin clubs. 3) After some research i have found that bigger guys than me do sail them, but not at the front of the fleet. 4) It won't cost me money to lose weight (infact it will probably save me money by living a healthier lifestyle) 5) When i was sailing before i was reasonable competative at club level with an old F15 against newer F15's. I knew at the time that if i could afford like for like that i would blitz a lot of of the people i was racing against. Getting back into sailing i would rather know that losing weight (which by starting up sailing i would hope to do anyway) would make me more competitive than flashing the cash. To sumarise and explain i would say it all comes down to circumstanse. If big chaps want good opens etc then Phantom/Finn/RS100?/D1? are really the only options. If you do not have much of a budget then D1/RS100 are out due to the short time they have been out and so cheap ones do not exist. You can find an elderly Finn/Phantom but must be aware that if you have any aspirations to get anywhere near the top of the fleet you will have to buy a newer version. If long term you will have a bigger budget and you feel you are healthy at the weight you are then the Phantom/Finn (depending on location) at present are you're obvious choice. If however (like me), you are also looking at losing some weight and getting fitter then i can't see a problem with getting a boat, that at present, you are too heavy for. Over time, if you do lose weight you will get more competitive. If any Supernova owners read this then i would be very interested in your feedback on my views, because i might be totally wrong. Graham |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 6:43am
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just for the record Graham competitive epoxy phantom are starting around the £3.5k mark (admittedly rare) but I do appreciate that this is still out of your price range. Do not think that you have to have the ovington phantom to be competitive, a vandercraft epoxy is still as fast in the right hands.
I wish the best of luck in your search and hope you get something that you enjoy. oh and for what its worth, I've always said to myself I need to lose weight, and it hasn't happened yet ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 11:38am
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Graham, The supernova does tick quite a few of your boxes..... The supernova is an underated weight carrier - especially when the wind gets up. It has quite a powerful rig and a fairly stiff mast. There are competitive ones in your price range. ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 2:01pm
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+1 for the supernova. its a great boat.
------------- |
Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 2:15pm
| As another 100kg (on a good day) sailor I'll also say +1 to the Phantom. I've owned 3, and other than the cost they really are a great boat for the heavier of us. However, I've never sailed a Supernova as I had the perception, rightly or wrongly, that I wouldn't be competitive in one at my weight. I'd be interested to be proved wrong though, as I think they look like a lot of boat for the money. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 3:08pm
| While I do not know the details or wish in any way to slander the Supernova, it has changed builders and some construction details over it's life. On the Class Forum there have been comments and questions about about some hulls failing in certain areas under heavy use, I guess perhaps there are good ones and better ones to be aware of. |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 3:40pm
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At 100kgs i would buy a vareo i sailed mine at 90 to 95 kgs without any problems and was very competive at that range . Just a thought so dont shot the messenger to those that hate the vareo i enjoyed sailing mine ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 4:28pm
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I agree with Andy, You dont get much more for your money then a used Vareo nowadays! If i had £1500 burning a whole in my pocket with an itch to buy a boat thats what i would be buying. ------------- |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 4:44pm
bloody good idea- and if you stretch to the new flat kite gennaker, you can even use it in narrow spots. ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 5:14pm
Vareos are not as fast as a boat with a kite should be IMHO, but the people who sail them seem to find it a lot of fun. Particularly if there's another one to play with. |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 5:47pm
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They were never designed to be- they're a beach boat, but don't let that be a criteria NOT to consider one. ------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 6:11pm
ermm, unless of course your criteria is to have a fast boat  ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: SalsaPirates
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 7:24pm
good fleet of phantoms at Frensham .... within easy reach of the sea when a change is desired. There is a phantom at lee on solent .... while this may not be the biggest fleet at l-o-s, it is probably the freindliest
 |
Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 8:11pm
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I'm not sure where you want to get to. If you want to get towards the top of the Finn fleet you'll need to be going to the gym most days and invest a serious amount of time to training in the boat. You'll also need to spend upwards of £10k on the boat, then budget for new sails each year. If you want to get to the top you need to turn professional. However if you want a lot of fun and to get to the top of your handicap fleet you can do this on a great deal less. I can win club handicap events and series in my 1964 Finn which cost £300! A good condition Finn for around £1.5K will be faster than mine. However you'll be sailing in the Classic fleet at Finn events. ------------- PeterV Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29 Warsash |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 9:46pm
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Umm handicap for vareo is 1038 phantom is 1040 ish so its not that slow in the right hands i always thought the handicap was ok i could sail it on that most of the time. Still think it worth considering one as who knows you might learn a thing or two by sailing one ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 10:01pm
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For 2012 Vareo is 1045 and Phantom is 1025. Considering the Phantom has no spinnaker I would say it is considerably faster. Our club results also suggest that as well. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 10:30pm
Oh god, the D1 is up for sale already then....  ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 6:28am
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That shows how out of touch i am with the handicaps then but hey who cares really so long as the guy gets a boat goes out and enjoys himself what else matters ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 7:57am
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You could go for the UK's fastest (non-foiling) hiking singlehander which would easily carry your weight plus your wife and kids if necessary. No class racing yet unfortunately but we now have a published PN of 930 so handicap racing is a possibility. And you'd never capsize in a gybe! Try a Weta!< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0&0&0"> Different subject. I want to update the Weta website News tab. Does anybody know how I do that? George Morris
|
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 8:03am
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Weta - on the Deben, you're having a laugh right? ------------- |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 8:07am
True- across the course, they're not 'fast' as upwind they're about on par with a laser. but deep reach with the kite up, it'd be pretty quick. I had over 16 knots out of mine and I wasn't kneeling in the bottom praying to Allah that it wouldn't death roll. ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 8:40am
Apart from an Asymmetric Canoe??? ------------- |
Posted By: Wetabix
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 9:06am
| Fastest hiking singlehander apart from those with foils or..........sliding planks!< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0&0&0"> |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Mar 12 at 10:31am
We're in it for laughs! |