Racing Rules: Mark room

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Mark room

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8412
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 3:55pm
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Topic: Mark room

Posted By: djdhi
Subject: Mark room
Date Posted: 16 Oct 11 at 5:33pm

I was racing recently when owing to a fortunate gust I overhauled a boat just on the 3 lengths circle round a mark, which was disputed. This type of incident is very common. The sailor ahead was concentrating on overtaking another boat which was very close to him and therefore could not, or chose not,to look behind. I am old enough to remember when the rule was 'mast abeam'. This seems to be a better rule as the leading sailor in a pack does not have to look round and cannot ignore an overtaking boat. Any thoughts ?

djdhi

Replies:

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 11 at 6:26pm

You must be older than you thought, because I'm fairly old and can't remember that the overlap at marks was ever mast abeam... Mast abeam was the point at which you had to stop luffing I believe. On overlaps the guidelines are that if there's doubt an overlap was made in time its considered it wasn't made, and if there's doubt it was broken it time consider that it wasn't broken.

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Oct 11 at 8:16pm

Blimey, if the rule was mast abeam, where would boats with 1/2 a boat length go when they were denied room?

If you think you have an overlap at 3 boat lengths, ask for water. Be prepared to either do turns when you decide that maybe you weren't quite there, or tofight your corner in a protest room. As Jim says, the onus will be on you to prove you gained the over lap.

Funny how 3 boat lengths for the lead boat is so much longer than the catching up boat thinks it is... wish there was a better, more measurable way of deciding.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 10:52am

Always an interesting exercise is to ask people to judge 3 boat lengths (of whatever they sail) on shore - its always miles out and its far easier to do on shore than on water!

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 1:03pm

When racing you need to be aware of all boats around you, not just the one you are trying to overtake.

Plus do remember the caveat which is that if there is any doubt if a boat does or does not have an overlap then it is assumed they do not (unless you can prove otherwise by having a witness in the protest room).

Fraggle raises a very good point though. I had an recent incident where I was denied Room because the guy in front claimed we were 6+ boatlengths away then denied me at what I judged to tbe 1.5 BL but he judged as 3.

After the race I asked him to show me on shore a distance of 3 BL, not surpisingly he got it wrong (we both sail Lasers)....

Plus when judging remember it is your bow (or the closest part of the closest boat, so 99 times out of 100 the bow, sprits unless they are fixed do not count if memory serves) so it is often a lot further away than you think!

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 1:39pm

Originally posted by jeffers

Plus do remember the caveat which is that if there is any doubt if a boat does or does not have an overlap then it is assumed they do not

I don't believe that is correct... Its one of those occasions where what ISAF call "Last point of certainty" comes in. In this case its specifically stated in 18.2d

(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 4:53pm

Two things to say on this:

1. exactly this happened to us at the weekend at about the 3 lengths circle we agreed with the outside boat that we would go inside, thank you Rhys, from where I was sitting it was impossible to say if I did or didn't have an overlap, this was at the point where we still had the option to go outside because we weren't so close to the windward boat that it would have been a problem, just slow.

2. Often the inside boat can go somewhere, its called missing the mark, gybing and coming back! This option hardly ever seems to enter anyone's head! When you can't the outside boat should let you in if they can (avoiding contact) and then you should retire or do your penalty depending on the advantage gained. IMHO if you build up a reputation for following the rules most other sailors are more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt in these situations.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 9:56pm

Originally posted by jeffers

sprits unless they are fixed do not count if memory serves)

Sprits do not count for boatlengths: the definition of zone relies on hull lengths.

Sprits do count for overlaps or 'reaching' the zone. Some classes with retractable sprits have rules about when you may and may not extend or retract the sprit to partially deal with this issue.

Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 22 Oct 11 at 11:49pm

Equipment Rules of Sailing: Page 14, Section D.1.1:

Definition of Hull: The shell including any transom, the deck including any superstructure, the internal structure including any cockpit, the fittings associated with these parts and any corrector weights.

The diagram on the same page makes clear that a bowsprit is not included in the definition of Hull. Therefore a bowsprit, fixed or extendable, does not count when calculating hull-length at a mark, though it does count for establishing an overlap when in its normal position. You would probably be on sticky ground (or is that water?) if your moveable bowsprit was extended before rounding the windward mark and you claimed an overlap on the basis of it.

If you hail an experienced competitor from behind for a marginal/late overlap, may say 'No water', give you the water anyway, and then protest. You would then have to prove that you'd had the overlap in the protest room. Probably wise to take the two turns.