Rule 28.1 protest
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Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
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Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 1:57pm
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Topic: Rule 28.1 protest
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Subject: Rule 28.1 protest
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 2:16pm
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Interesting incident from the weekend's racing. No protest lodged but would appreciate your thoughts. Cruiser race at sea. Race officer selects a course using fixed marks. Writes it on a blackboard before start sequence and additionally relays course details to competing yachts via VHF (standard practice) Boat A sails the course, leaving all marks to port, and finishes the race Boat B sails the course leaving some marks to starboard, finishes the race and asks Boat A if it will retire, having incorrectly sailed the course. Boat A has a conversation with the PRO - after the race - and decides NOT to retire. The PRO does not protest either boat A or B and takes no further action. Boat B (and others) write to class captain after the race, complaining about the alleged rule infringement by boat A. Nobody protested boat A at the time because they believed that Boat A would retire, having realised his "mistake" Boat A's explanation for leaving all marks to port is that the marks were displayed on the committee boat but NOT the side on which each mark was to be left. Boat A asked the Race Officer what side to leave each mark and believes he was told "port" Boat A did not hear the subsequent VHF message that appears to have specified starboard roundings for some marks. It is now 48 hours since the incident - what action should be taken? A couple of options come to mind. 1/ Allow the results to stand - refuse to accept protests at this time - no boat hailed "protest" or raised a protest flag at the time 2/ Allow a protest against boat A to be heard under rule 28.1 (leaving marks on wrong side) 3/ Allow a redress hearing by Boat A (claiming an improper action by the race committee under rule 27.1) 4/ Abandon the race as not all boats sailed the same course. ------------- RS300 393 OK GBR 21 |
Replies:
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 2:49pm
| well option 2 doesn't seem to be a realistc option because, as you said, there was no protestit also sounds as though it is too late for a redress hearing - someone would need to ask the prtest cttee to extend the time limits for protests / redress hearings. Interestingly, if they did so they might then be the ones who were accused of being to blame so it might not be in their interests |
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 2:55pm
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Knowing that Boat A hasn't retired, boats B,C and so on are now feeling aggrieved and would probably lodge a protest if allowed to. ------------- RS300 393 OK GBR 21 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 3:33pm
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Well, bearing in mind its a cruiser race at sea, presumably with longish legs and marks well apart from each other, what sort of gains did boat A make from the incorrect mark roundings?
My gut feeling is that a protest would/should be slung out because the B, C did not inform A of their intention to protest "at the first reasonable opportunity" and carry on and log the protest within the time limit. If there was a protest hearing then a redress hearing would surely follow. If the RC did not notify marks as required in RRS/SIs there's a good chance a redress hearing would succeed. If boat A actually sailed the same length course as everyone else bar a foot or three in mark roundings reinstatement in finishing place might well be the best redress. I cannot see that abandonment would be fair to all competitors. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 3:49pm
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Remember it is not down to the RO to ensure all boats sail the correct course. In this case he probably could not see all the marks if the legs were long.
I believe most clubs have a declaration that you sign to say you will sail in accordance with the rules and some make you sign off. This declaration includes that you will sail the course correctly.
If the RO did not specify which side the marks were to be left to then he is at fault especially of the course is open to interpretation (didnt we have a thread on this a while back?).
What SHOULD have happened is that boats B and C should have informed boat A of their intention to protest as they did not believe Boat A had sailed to correct course and then lodged the protest within the time limit. If this was done when all parties were ashore (as this was the first opportunity) then maybe the 'chat' from the RO could also have taken place with the lodging of the protest made after if A decided to not retire.
As we are now outside of the time limit then not much can be done aside from the RO being made to include the side a mark should be left to when he issues the course that way the correct course can be in no doubt.
In this case as the side was not specified if A was DSQ'd by the PC then they could lodge an appeal and would likely win it.
The best thing here is don't leave it to chance and assume the other boat will do what you view to be the right thing as their opinion is very likely to differ from your own (this is why we have the protest procedure in the first place). Informing the other party and filling out the form takes a couple of minutes and it can always be destroyed if it is not required and used if 'mediation' does not provide a satisfactory outcome.
So in my opinion option 1 is really the only option. I do not believe the race can be abandoned as it has been completed and this is not fair unless all competitors in it agree to drop it from the series. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 7:15pm
| If there's a course on a blackboard and a course on the committee boat, the club should have some ruling as to which one is the "master" in case of differences or changing by the RO at the last minute. The club badly needs to review its race equipment and ensure that the race officer has all that is needed to correctly display a course including port/starboard. I've had to improvise with paper slotted into the committee boat board and a scribbled number but there's always a P or S. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 8:46pm
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It is kind of basic, really, stating which way to go round marks. If boat A was told by the RO which way to go and then did so, I can't really see how it is to blame, even if other boats were told different, unless it states in the sailing instructions that the course shall be taken from the VHF broadcast. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 2:13pm
The gains could be huge. Extreme example could be racing from Plymouth to Falmouth and using the lighthouse as a mark. Big difference going inside or outside it! ------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 5:32pm
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From a procedural pint of view - if protest time limit is passed, and there is no good reason to extend the limit then the incident is closed. Question 1 - Do the SIs allow for verbal changes to the course over the VHF? If they don't then what was written on blackboard is the course. Question2 - At what time, relative to the start signals, did the RO give details of course over the VHF? Question 3 Why did other boats not protest? Writing to the Class Captain is somewhat ungentlemanly, especially when authors of the letter couldn't be bothered to protest. Basically, the letter writers are accusing the crew of A of being cheats. I can hear the sound of lawyers rubbing their hands in glee! Question 4 If RO thought there was a problem why did he not protest? In order to avoid this problem next time - 1. write course out ON PAPER, post one copy on notice board, file a copy for future record and, if possible, make copies available to competitors. Problem with blackboards is that they get rubbed out and there is no permanent record of course set. 2 If SIs allow course changes by VHF (not necessarily a good idea) then make sure that a recording is made of any message, time of message is logged and try and get some confirmation that message has been received. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 7:41pm
| 1b. make a check to ensure that with the specified sequence of port and starboard mark roundings, the course actually makes sense and is not ambiguous |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 10:26pm
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Were all the marks rounding marks? SI's should be clear on this. If so the distance sailed should be the same. If not, i.e some are passing marks, it's a farce and there really should have been a protest. Most yacht races started from committee boats rely on courses created shortly before the start, to get a beat, so posting on notice board ashore is not going to wash. Also yachts often do not start from the home club, being based in various marinas etc. Agrieved parties should protest or shut up. If they had reason to believe the yacht would retire, then it did not, that may be sufficient reason to extend the time limit, as per last sentence in R61.3. Some clubs use the notation that all marks are to port unless indicated otherwise, so it's easy to see why this happened. Quite a bit of yacht race management is like this i'm afraid. |
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Date Posted: 14 Oct 11 at 7:15pm
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All the marks were rounding marks. Boat A rounded all the marks - nothing was missed - so any time gained as a result would be minimal. The courses are usually pre-set so the RO normally says "course A" or something and all the sailors do is refer to the sheet that has course A. In this case he set the course while at anchor in the bay - so it wasn't published before the fleet got afloat. Pretty sure that the course was shown before the warning signal. (I wasn't there) VHF is used as a means of communication with the fleet - this is in the SI's - but the course must be shown on the committee boat too. It seems that he may have written the port or starboard roundings on the board (at the time or later) but they weren't very legible. I don't know whether the other boats got their course information from the blackboard or over the VHF radio. Because the hearing hasn't taken place we might not get all the facts. Suffice to say that any protest submitted now is almost certainly going to be thrown out without much of a hearing because none of the yachts informed Boat A they were going to protest or flew a red flag. In fairness to Boat A I can't see how we can proceed with a hearing under these circumstances. This discussion topic has been really interesting and useful. One thing I learn from incidents such as this is that its better to protest and deal with a grievance immediately than let it simmer afterwards. If you're not going to bother with a protest - don't bother writing to the class captain and don't bother sulking afterwards. I suspect this race will be the subject of bar talk and strained relations for some time to come! ------------- RS300 393 OK GBR 21 |
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Date Posted: 18 Oct 11 at 11:45am
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Postscript to the above. We photographed the blackboard that had the course displayed. It's a bit smudged but you can see how the "port / starboard" roundings were written. Not sure if they were added at the time or after the confusion began. We do have a protest to hear - very likely to be ruled invalid at the hearing owing to the lack of a protest flag. But I have to say I have some sympathy with any skipper who claims he couldn't see the course clearly...  ------------- RS300 393 OK GBR 21 |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 18 Oct 11 at 2:43pm
| Totally agree with the sentiments of protesting immediately....there is another thread in the dinghy section about protesting (or lack of them). |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 11 at 6:58pm
Don't whinge if you're not going to protest, but do give diplomatic feedback to the organisers to help get things right next time. And all rounding marks should be to port unless there is an overpowering reason for a starboard rounding! (please!) |
Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 6:05pm
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Nothing to do outside time limit unforunatley, the results must stand. Agree with the post about intending to protest and notifying the RO this at least gives you more time to talk it through get evidence etc.... After notifying the Ro and Protest comittee we get 1 week to organise ourselves before the hearing- generally in this time it gets sorted with whoever retiring. Very occasionally it gets to the PC ------------- Cheers you only me from over the sea...... |