All fine so far, but what is the poor old RO to do when 20% of the fleet crosses the line in the last few seconds, causing another recall?

Option 1: Post sail numbers of those positively identified, but let the others take part in the restart. Possibly unfair to those penalised near the CB when naughty boys nearer the pin get away with it.

Option 2: Post no numbers and restart with the whole fleet. Avoids the option 1 unfairness but annoys those who took pains to start correctly. Also sends a signal that the black flag can be ignored if enough of then push it.

Genuine dilemma. In two races yesterday, we did one of each - which could be criticised for inconsistency but there were some differences and, ultimately, decisions are split-second.

What would you do?

(My personal view: stick with flag P and keep doing recalls till the buggers get it right)

 

In a large fleet I would also have boat numbers (not just sail numbers) as a backup - it is easier to remember a series of two digit numbers rather than a series of six

 

The correct thing to do IMHO is a General Recall when you cannot identify all guilty parties, but (if your SI allows it) BF those identified as guilty and then GR the remainder - they will soon get the idea

 

 

 

My personal opinion is that the black flag should be used in this sort of situation, I guess you were warned by the CA.

Pin end boat is an obvious one, but in a large fleet still won't catch everybody; but its better than just a committee boat.

I would start recording numbers as boats got the wrong side of the line and record as many as you can be certain are over, use a recording device and play back later, include comments and numbers as you see them, throw out all you identified from both ends of the line, if your both identifying the same boats from the middle of the line the chances are you got most if not all the early starters.

 

It may not be "fair" that some boats weren't seen but you got everybody you could see and thats all you could do, when has sailing ever been fair anyway!

 

 

If you keep trying under the P-flag the fleet will keep pushing and you'll get recall after recall as there is no penalty.  If you go to the black flag and take numbers then people realise you mean business and will start to behave.  May take a few goes and I'm assuming your line is fair.  We have had 20+ boats chucked in races before (80-100 boats on startline) over a number of recalls.

 

The only fair way is to go to the black flag and take the numbers you can see.  Restarting the whole fleet if you can't read them all.  If you can read them chuck em and let the fleet start.

 

I thought it was the Dart 18s

 

 

Why would it be fair not to penalize known offenders?

 

If there are known to be a significant number of further, unidentifed  boats over the line, the committee should general recall.

 

I agree a boat at the pin end is a good idea, normally this can just be a rescue boat, with an observer and a note pad.

 

Presumably, if the RO failed to flick known offenders, a boat down the fleet would have a good cause for a redress hearing?

 

At the moment people keep pushing the line and the black flag has no effect at all.

 

I'd suggest for any class the RO should take the advice of the class association and stick to it for consistency.  If this all happened on the first day of an event, the RO could discuss with committee or senior members of the fleet to guage opinion.  That way there can be no argument on the outcome.  I'm not saying that the RO should pass responsibility off, but its good to be consistent and follow the class norm.

Would it not be better to use Z?

Whenever I have a black flag start and a recall I think they should bin at least 2 boats (1 visible from each end), if they dont bin any then it smacks of a rubbish race officer.

 

I might be wrong but I assumed Dart 18s as I believe the original poster is also the photographer, and additionally makes comments regarding the number of recalls.

 

http://www.iossc.org.uk/darts2011/index.php?pg=photos - http://www.iossc.org.uk/darts2011/index.php?pg=photos

 

 

Yes, it was the Darts, and we did have a pin-end observer who was useful.

Looks like we got it right in the first race. There were a few boats over about 20 secs before the start and we BFD'd them but then had a starboard-end breakthrough in the last couple of seconds where we couldn't identify numbers so let them go.

Second race, the starboard-end breakthrough happened at 5-10 seconds before the start and was just too confusing. We recalled it and displayed a note, "Too many to count, you got away with it this time" which caused a couple of moans but a lot of chuckles. Whether because of that or not, they all behaved themselves and stayed well clear on the second restart. Phew.

Its a tough job keeping track when there are so many boats starting in a breeze - especially when they are cats that can go from parked to full throttle in a few seconds.  I would however say that those that you could call over should be pulled up.  Those that don't get called over will inevitably get away with it, but as people before have said this will sort itself out on the next start as the numbers reduce.

Bloody Elf n Safety, screws everything...

(or has it? the wording of the rule is 'a minute before the start', not the one minute gun IIRC(?), so you cannot be BFD on a start that does not happen.... is that right????

 

Do they AP at one minute?

How do they decide?

It's a worry that it could be thought to be influenced by the 'right' boats being in the right place.

 

these rules always get more complex the longer you think about them!

 

As others have said, according to the rules any numbers that you gather before/at a black flag start should be displayed. The whole point of a general recall is that you can't identify all the boats over the line, so by definition some will get away with it. If you can identify them all then it's a valid staert and there should be no recall (BFD boats should be informed at the windward mark).

 

A black flag general recall followed by a blank board doesn't do much to inspire competitor confidence in the race team, or to promote a clean start next time around.

 

The option of postponing before the start gun should only be used (IMO) if something has happened that has impacted on the fairness of the start (e.g. big shift, loss of wind, aircraft carrier coming through the course, error in start signals), not just because lots of boats are pushing the line.

 

Note - if numbers have been gathered after the 1 minute gun, but the start sequence is then abandoned, those boats should not be BFD. This is not the case if the race is started but then abandoned (or thrown out by protest committee) - any BFDs from any valid starts are carried over to any subsequent re-run of that race, even if on a later day.

 

best way to deal with fleets like this is to be VERY FIRM and make it clear at the pre-regatta briefing that the Black Flag will be used; and those that are over will be binned; if it takes an hour to bin enough to get a good start then so be it.

 

been in fleets in the past were 1/3rd of the fleet got binned before we got away.  After that start we all behaved.....

 

So often Generals are caused by a lack of awareness of tide, and the fact that it is having a sifnificant effect on teh apparent wind.  Thus the 5 degrees of bias on the stationary committee boat is about 20 degrees to the boat on the water.

 

Or just setting too much bias.  I have heard that on ROs courses it is taught that the default is port bias (5 to 10 degrees) in order to help pull boats away from  the committee boat.  Now all too often actually the bias is set at 10 to 20 degrees.  Result - very difficult starts.  Or the other factors make folk favour going left and therefore square or starboard bias is bneeded to spread the fleet.

 

For me the default should be a square line, or not more than 10 degrees port.  Set any more in either direction will result in recalls.

 

And don't start me on OCS for boats that start in the line sag and "must have been over".

It would also provide good evidence in any 'when boats meet' transgressions as well.

Doubly annoying when it starts at 15 degrees and works left from there.

 

But I also don't do much multi-class starting these days so more chance of a lack of shift.

 

If we are on black flag you identify all you can post the numbers...remembering that if you can identify those behind the line...you have identified all those over the line!

 

Having PROd Darts under the black flag they were happy that you identify a few, whitling down the numbers until they behaved