3 man trapeze boat!?!?!
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7855
Printed Date: 21 Jan 26 at 9:31am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 3 man trapeze boat!?!?!
Posted By: RobbieP94
Subject: 3 man trapeze boat!?!?!
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 12:53pm
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Surely it's time for a three man trapeze boat?
something similar to the what the rs 800 is to skiff sailing something that u can trun up to the club a hour or so before the start pull up the main and jib put the foils in and boom your away unlike the half day to rig a 18 footer ! surely there is a market out there that some one like rs could target really just a cheaper, easier to sail, easier to rig, and easier to maintain 18 ------------- Laser GXD 184358 I14 1395 (crew) RS200 352 (crew) Coribee Keelboat (helm) |
Replies:
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:07pm
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Given that it's often difficult to maintain a hlem/crew partnership on two man boats, I think one of the reasons that there aren't prevalent three man boats (trap or non trap) in this country is that there's not very much demand. Aus has the likes of the 16ft Skiff, and in the US there's three man Scows (I think?) as well as various heavy three man dinghies.
If RS (for example) were being snowed under by people like yourself, I'm sure they'd consider getting one designed. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:09pm
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Given how small the market is for twin-wire boats I dont see the demand to be honest. I know Jim has shown some figures in the past to back this up. Aside from the 18ft skiff there is also the National 18 which is either a single or double trapeze 3-hander and the osprey which can be sailed 3 up. neither option seems to be particularly popular. The fact is that if you are trying to avoid the kind of loads that make 18s so involved to set up and sail your going to be going much slower than a typical twin wire boat. |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:11pm
| 18s dont take half a day to rig, even from the trailer |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:18pm
Well that depends on whether you live near Cork or not. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 1:51pm
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Racing in 3-person boats is alive and healthy.
Keelboats that is!
One of the great things about racing a 3 person keelbaot in the evenings is that when one of you is late back from work, the other two can still sail.
A 3 person trap boat is a big animal needing big courses to sail on. It's going to be highly stressed and expensive. Is there really any point, outside 'Grand Prix' skiffs?
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Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 2:22pm
Indeed. 45mins from trailer to water if you put a little effort into getting it properly sorted. They're very simple boats.
Mike
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Posted By: RobbieP94
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 3:42pm
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so really it's a social problems with sailors and their other hobbies?
------------- Laser GXD 184358 I14 1395 (crew) RS200 352 (crew) Coribee Keelboat (helm) |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 5:12pm
| perhaps a 3-person cat, two wires, you could said it 2-up in light stuff or 3-up in heavier breeze? |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 5:53pm
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A little mention for one of the oldest classes out there:
A Rater - can be sailed as a 3 man hiker, single, double or treble trap.
Speaking with one of the Rater boys a couple of years ago his comment was that treble trap is a bit of a suicide mission, but it can be (and is) done ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 6:19pm
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3 man trap on the river in shifty breezes - how many tea-baggings are you going to get from that?! Sounds fun - to watch... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RobbieP94
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 6:37pm
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clearly 3/4 man boats are popular look at the laser SB3
In my opinion the only decent boat to come from laser in the last while the rest seem to have disappeared or been none existent in large numbers the SB3 isn't the driest boat in strong winds and a choppy sea so surely a 3 man trap skiff can be done and might steal some of the SB3 sailors from the class ------------- Laser GXD 184358 I14 1395 (crew) RS200 352 (crew) Coribee Keelboat (helm) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 7:02pm
| I don't believe the Raters sail with strings on the river. It would scarcely be practical anyway because, certainly when I've sailed at Thames, the wind tends to funnel down the river so you get beats or runs and very short tacks. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 7:07pm
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A 3 man fast dinghy might be more popular than a 3 man skiff? And take it further from 18 footer comparisons, and suit British weather better? But really, I think those who have said that getting 2 people together in a dinghy is hard enough - getting 3 people who are able and willing to get out on the trapeze all in the same place at the same time, and willing to make the financial contribution to what would need to be a FD sized boat would be very hard indeed.
Sailing a small keelboat to mid to bottom fleet standard just needs the same skill levels as a large family dinghy. The top guys are capable of sailing anything, but need the rest to make a strong fleet. A 3 man trap boat would need everyone to be sh*t hot, which may be the 18 footer's problem. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Wee Man
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 7:27pm
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Hobie built the 21, 3 man Cat with 2 trapeze wires, park benches mounted either side. I don't think many were sold outside the US. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 17 May 11 at 11:45pm
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The original Bethwaite B18 was pretty much what you're talking about - three people (two on the wire), one rig (18 Foot Skiff #2 flex-tip rig IIRC) and comparatively simple to rig. The hull was the one that was later developed into the Bethwaite GP18 - not particularly easy to sail but particularly quick! There's probably boats and moulds still around in Europe and there may have been no huge leaps in design in that bracket, so maybe simply reviving the B18 (with a T foil?) would be the best option.
The most popular three-person skiff type is obviously the 16, but as mentioned earlier they are not particularly quick compared to shorter double-wire boats, rating between the I-14 and the 49er. And the modern 16 is a slender "displacement" hull so it's not particularly stable, although it certainly doesn't require experts to sail at back-of-the-fleet level. And of course it's only popular where you have clubs that are happy to arrange sponsorship and pay beer money even for those who struggle to get around the course! |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 18 May 11 at 7:41am
| I actually think the SB3 captures the market really well, else, you are really looking at an 18. Alternatively, find your third person a crew/helm and get two 49ers, 800s, etc. There may be more fun in having two double-handers to race against each other than an obscure tripple hander. As you remove the complexity of an 18, you're going to tend to something along the lines of an SB3 to keep the performance alive and practicality. For what it's worth, I'd quite happily have an SB3, very attractive package and excelent racing. Just don't have enough cash at the moment, but such is life. |
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 18 May 11 at 8:52am
We had one at Marconi for a few years, gone now though, was a massive boat and as you say had the park ebnches either side made it more like a cruising cat. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 18 May 11 at 9:37am
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You're going to need a lot of water to sail such a beast in anyway... so I think the cat idea has some legs but agree, there's isn't enough volume in it to interest one of the big builders, a 3 person dinghy won't reach SB3 sales volumes IMO. The cat platform means you could have just one mast that stays up all the time (rather than seperate rigs skiff style) and either reef, or have different sail combo's, to accomodate low/high wind occassions, it will also provide a big enough platform for 3 to sail without crashing into each other, while avoiding the need for wings, bars, seats or whatever which would probably be needed on a monohull although I don't think Oz 16ft's have wings or perhaps didn't once upon a time but do now? There's probably enough power in an F20 rig for 3 people to sail one right now, 2 on wires, 1 on helm hiking. |
Posted By: Barty
Date Posted: 18 May 11 at 12:25pm
........or South West London, or Moray (Scotland) or on the Isle of Man
They are single wire and are complete bandits on handicap in the light stuff!!! ------------- http://www.highlandtopper.com - For Topper boats & spares in Scotland-highlandtopper.com |
Posted By: Hughph
Date Posted: 20 May 11 at 7:49pm
This could be what your looking for, I don't know what it is though.... Any help? I saw it on the CST Composites website...
 ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 22 May 11 at 11:41am
| It's a 16. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 6:23am
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. No its a 15 - http://www.cstcomposites.com/vee_ess.htm - http://www.cstcomposites.com/vee_ess.htm Mick Northam steering the bethwaite revised Vee Ess class 'SYC Computers' extraordinarily cheap boat to run, one rig http://youtu.be/6j2g6EYmtuw - [TUBE]6j2g6EYmtuw[/TUBE] [TUBE]Qa35PNspo8I[/TUBE] http://www.vs.asn.au/ - http://www.vs.asn.au/ |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 08 Dec 11 at 8:52pm
| You know what, they look pretty good. How do they fair against the 49ers? I'm guessing slightly slower but not the end of the world. |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 08 Dec 11 at 9:35pm
| I like the way the bowman crosses round the front of the mast. They seem to be quite wide at the front end, is that just flare above the waterline? |
Posted By: Sheetpuller
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:14am
Is that a polite way of saying the bowman seems to be a bit lardy?  ------------- I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why I'm right. Merlin Rocket 3545 - 'Smooth Operator' Sprint 15 1342 - 'Still Crazy' |
Posted By: Sheetpuller
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:27am
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Why stop at three strings? If the boat's big enough you could have four, five six...
Oh, I forgot - we've been there already. Does anybody know what happened to the Ultra 30s? There must be a few sitting around somewhere that could be picked up cheap. Imagine bigger clubs owning one each and having inter-club regattas with them! Could be a lot of fun trying to make the club team; will Queen Mary SC thrash HISC next season, or will the combined Lee-On-The Solent and Stokes Bay team snatch the trophy from under their noses?
OK, OK. I know. It's Friday and I'm bored... ------------- I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why I'm right. Merlin Rocket 3545 - 'Smooth Operator' Sprint 15 1342 - 'Still Crazy' |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:33am
The fundamental point was they were rubbish. The numbers just don't add up. Big heavy overweight lumps. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 12:21pm
They did OK for a while, they were reasonably fun to watch (particularly from a mark boat), then people got a bit bored and the money didn't add up any more, a few of the stars found other employment. Sponsors pulled out when they saw the returns dropping off. Classic lifecycle of a media circus event. Only a few special ones last a long time. Saw one of the boats growing weed and mould in Penzance. |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 10:40pm
| I still quite like the 16 at the top. Probably completely against the logic of this thread, I'd always want to put wings / racks on and sail it two up. I quite like the idea of a two up 16 foot skiff class, like a 49er with no rules. I'd want to go one mast route, so not going to be allowed to call it a skiff, just that fast 16 foot thing. |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 10:44pm
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thats been done, sk4 ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: dafox
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 10:58pm
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This is my 3 man Trapeze Boat. Well i havnt put the twin wires on yet as i have only had her for two months. Just making the fitting at work this week. I am Planing on making it a mast head kite as well with top spreaders to re-enforce the mast I have a lot of work to do to make it sail well in light winds.(My main sport is kitesurfiing which happens in 18 knots +) It has a lead keel so when you capsize(knock down) you only have to wait 8 seconds and she pop up again by her own accord. First on the list is to repair the rudder cam as the rudder keep popping up at high speed as you can see in my first video i made on a day when no one else was out, for a good reason. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUtNkSFvCew - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUtNkSFvCew Boat budget under £4000 to be finish next spring.
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Posted By: dafox
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:02pm
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On that day we had to come back after my crew noticed a wing had some damage. They are not meant to be that far out. I am looking for some stronger alloy tubeing. Its a lot more fun sailing with an extra person or two )
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:15pm
That looks great fun! What's it like in lighter airs though? Combining posts..... how about an Inter-Club Breeze Series? ------------- |
Posted By: dafox
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:24pm
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There arnt many Breeze's around as only 150 where built 100 going the sunsail or club med i think. . White formula has just built a new one using vacuum technology as i bought the old one. It sail ok in light winds but i do most of my sailing in sub 1o knots so i need to pimp her up. also making thinking of increasing the roachin the main to a fat head.
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 09 Dec 11 at 11:35pm
Hehe, keep us updated as it goes - and well done for creating the right boat for you ------------- |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 10 Dec 11 at 11:20am
Is the SK4 16 foot? I think it's quite similar to the Rebel, and what I'd come up with would be a fair bit different, not that big a fan of the Rebel after seeing it a few times.
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Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 10 Dec 11 at 12:42pm
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i dont know how long it is exactly, but it felt a bit like a twitchy 49er when i sailed it. the rebels a bit heavy ;) ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 10 Dec 11 at 7:21pm
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sk4 is 13ft long and about 50ft wide ------------- (Redoubt Sc) Miracle 4040 GP14 13407 Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 10 Dec 11 at 9:34pm
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I'd want to go at least 16 foot, maybe 17 so you can pace the 49er upwind in the light stuff. Build it lighter than the 49er with a slightly flatter higher aspect ratio sail plan and you'd be fairly quick. Scrap the one rig rule idea, go two, a normal one and then an ickle one for when the wind goes over 20 knots, very flat and low dragish. |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 10 Dec 11 at 11:27pm
 ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 12 Dec 11 at 8:13pm
------------- 12ft Skiff - Gordon Keeble and the Furry Fly-by AC - GBR271 - Whoosh B49 - Island Alchemy |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 13 Dec 11 at 9:28pm
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Know it's a three man boat thread, I was meaning a double hander. Don't really see the point though, 49er is a pretty good boat, a lot of effort for marginal gain, if any. |