Starboard Boat ducking Port Boat question
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7803
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 1:50pm
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Topic: Starboard Boat ducking Port Boat question
Posted By: er111a
Subject: Starboard Boat ducking Port Boat question
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 12:05am
| So I was on Port and a starboard boat hailed starboard so I went to duck them, now here is when something happened that I am a bit confused about, as I went to duck they tacked so I went back up to stay above them. They argued that they tacked because they feared I would hit them, even though I was clearly heading down. As a side not I sail 420's, so who is in the wrong? |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 12:29am
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If Starboard had a genuine apprehension that you weren't going to be able to keep clear then I believe you're in the wrong.
Case 50 in the case book is worth looking at. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012with2011changes-[9701].pdf If you ended up to windward of them after they had tacked then it sounds as if you hadn't ducked very far, so a PC might be readily convinced that there was a fair chance you weren't going to make it past the transom. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 12:30am
Sorry to answer your question with questions, but:
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Posted By: er111a
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 2:12am
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1. No 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 2:14am
Which of these did the protest committee agree with?
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Posted By: er111a
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 2:24am
| I am part of a highschool sailing team and it was during practice, so there was not a protest committee, but my coach ruled for the boat on S |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 3:12am
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So, your coach thinks that you started your duck too late and/or didn't duck deep enough so that, taking Case 50 into account you didn't keep clear of S and broke rule 10 (and, that being the case, any breach of rule 13 by S in tacking away was compelled by your breach of rule 10 and is to be exonerated under rule 64.1(c)).
You disagree: apparently you think you ducked deep enough and early enough.
Hopefully, you now understand how Case 50 amplifies how rule 10 applies.
What actually happened is water under the bridge, but you now need to try to learn from the experience. You could ask your coach what it is that you should have done to make it less likely to have a decision like this go against you in future, and maybe highlight what techniques and drills will help to improve your judgement and execution.
By the way, rule 16.2 is aimed at S hunting P DOWN: it would be pretty difficult for S to break rule 16.2 by changing course towards the wind.
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Posted By: er111a
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 3:27am
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rule 16.1When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear. I was thinking of this rule
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 5:34am
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OK, please don't think I am trying to give you a hard time: just trying to encourage you to take an analytical view of the incident and the rules.
In your original post you said that 'as I went to duck they tacked'. I understand this to mean that S did not change course until you began to bear away, then S changed course towards the wind preparatory to tacking.
If S is changing course towards the wind, and P is bearing away to duck round S, then boats are changing course in opposite directions away from each other.
If S is changing course away from P, how can she be not giving P room to keep clear?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 8:52am
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The thing is you rarely get port/starboard collisions when both boats were sailing along without alteration of course. Almost invariably port has attempted to give way but misjudged it, maybe by starting to turn too late.
If port is attempting to get across starboard's bow then its usually not too bad, because unless port has really misjudged then unless starboard has been brought up in the dodgems school of racing, starboard just has to bear away a bit to clear ports stern, at which point port has to take their penalty. This often leaves port very aggrieved, because they may be convinced that starboard didn't need to duck. Ben Ainslie caught a DSQ in I think the last Olympics in precisely that situation. So if you cross ahead its high risk for Port's race. The really bad collisions tend to happen when port is attempting to go behind stbd. As you bear away the boat:- i) accelerates as its now on a reach ii) quite possibly heels, and the rudder becomes less effective. the result is that port is now unable to turn fast enough or quick enough, and spears into the side of starboard. I suspect, without evidence, that most collisions casing significant damage happen in that circumstance. So if it looks as if port isn't taking enough avoiding action early enough then starboard is going to get very nervous about being T boned. So what should port do? Fortunately the best thing for port to do to avoid collisions and give Starboard full confidence they won't be hit is also the fastest thing to finish the race. You bear away early, allowing for the speed increase, until you are pointing well behind their stern. You then point back up onto a beat so that as you pass their stern you are already pointing as high as you need, and at full speed or better, yet only need a tiny flick of the tiller if you are a bit too close. 
In "right" port is off a collision course very early. In "wrong" port is on a collision course right up to the last second - and thus not keeping clear. Port also ends up two or three boat lengths to leeward of right. So I guess your coach - and a PC would probably agree - was thinking your course put you closer to wrong than right. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 May 11 at 10:53am
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I would disagree with Brass on one point - I have disqualified boats on more than one occasion because they changed course to windward to initiate a tack causing a port tack boat that was keeping clear to have to take immediate further avoiding action - the problem being that the boat luffing to tack often slows considerably when doing so (more so with keelboats). This would happen in the diagram above if, as Red returned to a close-hauled course (and was keeping clear) Green threw in a tack... Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 07 May 11 at 4:27pm
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I was put in such a situation that Gordon identifies;
Laser open meeting,
I (port) was bearing away to closely duck a Starboard boat, as I did so, the wind veered; even so I was still comfortably in control. Starboard, however was headed by the windshift and tried to execute a tack, In doing so the stern quarter of the Starboard boat turns towards me, to the point where I had insufficient time to make any further adjustments to my trim and steering to avoid a collision. A spontaneous shout from me and Starboard reversed his decision avoiding a collision by millimetres.
We had a friendly chat at lunch about the incident and the other sailor conceded that he had initially changed course in response to the windshift, and not because he thought we were going to collide. Thankfully we just missed each other otherwise he accepted he would have broken 16.2
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Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 07 May 11 at 5:42pm
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Jim has it spot on, incidentally its also faster. You can also response with the hail seen you or hold your course to their starboard. the rules don't require it and they can ignore it if they feel threatened but it might give them confidence that you will avoid them. ------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 9:51am
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You'll also be in a better position on port to take the lift that you get off the back of a stb boat when ducking if you use Jim's method. Communication is the key here, though - tell the stb boat you have seen her and are ducking, and that will give them the confidence to keep sailing in a straight line, which suits you both. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |