Class Selection for 2016
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7703
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 7:20am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Class Selection for 2016
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Class Selection for 2016
Date Posted: 27 Mar 11 at 10:38pm
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Many submissions on Olympic classes for the ISAF Mid year meeting in May - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=156256 - See here... No remote sign of a consensus developing... As I probably predicted somewhere there's much support for keeping both M & F 470 classes from the smaller nations, also predictably much support to get Keelboat/Star back, also support for ditching keelboats completely (IMHO there would be a risk of killing paralympic sailing if they did this because I can imagine venues refusing to do lead mine facilities for just the Paras), some support for a lightweight female singlehander as *well* as the Radial, so 4 singlehanded dinghies, in fact some support for just about anything you care to mention.
Inevitable result is going to be much ****fighting, much politicking and and whole heaps of conspiracy theories and how ISAF are destroying sailing... My view... I hold no brief for the 470, but the small countries badly want to keep it. To keep sailing in the games we need more small countries, hence they should be listened to. Women's Skiff - well to my mind the world's female sailors have voted with their chequebooks with the spectacular (lack) of sales of the 29erXX. ISAF are unlikely to vote for a prototype, and I can't see any new class getting critical mass. I don't believe there is a good slate of 10 events bearing in mind relative popularity of curent classes: no matter what they pick many sailors will feel reasonably justifiably upset. If you want two boards, two Lasers, 2 470s, Finn for its popularity, keelboats, catamaran, two skiffs that's 12... My bias would be to pay little or no attention to what rich western countries who will always go to the games think: what the sport needs most is active countries, not the mirage of big TV coverage, so delegates, if you are reading this, I suggest you listen hardest to the voices of the folk from smaller and third world nations, especially Africans. |
Replies:
Posted By: Foiling_Toff
Date Posted: 30 Mar 11 at 7:13pm
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It does seem like a bit of a mess to say the least. There are so many different opinions out there that it is impossible to pick just 10 events that will please everyone. For example, I personally think that mixed 470s is an obvious choice as it represents a large proportion of teams outside the Olympics. I even saw calls for an evaluation on men's high performance singlehanders, again http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Yachting-NZ-announced-2016-Olympic-Events-submission/81262 This ones been going since what, the 60s? http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Yachting-NZ-announced-2016-Olympic-Events-submission/81262 - |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 31 Mar 11 at 12:18pm
+1 but I'd add in South America as a good target market and also indo-china (yes I know that's a dated term) as both areas have much greater access to sailable waters, coatal population centres and infrastructure to support developing sailing through schools... things, from my perception only, that are lacking in many African countries.... |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 31 Mar 11 at 12:51pm
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Well I think it's ludicrous they are looking at Kitesurf course racing to replace windsurfing, when the sport hasn't even taken off beyond a few events last year and it is so in its infancy. Just another financially motivated decision to enable ISAF to gain revenue from what it perceives is a massive growth market, they're totally wrong of course, as always. How did that Paul henderson get to be in that position and remain there for so long? He thinks windsurfing should go because of the pumping.. jeez it's no different than the aggressive hiking activity I've now come to experience in dinghies, all that rocking about chucking oneself back and forth further and further to windward, isn't that exactly the same sort of kinetics? AS to the boat thing I agree with JimC regarding the 470, my views on the 49er are documented elsewhere, it does make the whole sport look ridiculous if Olympians cannot control the object with which they are endeavouring to compete in. It would be a similar mistake to use an MPS for example, so the Laser bless its cotton socks remains good sense. The Finn should be replaced with the D1, that's an obvious course of action probably planned that way all along. Wimmen? Do they sail even, all this equality of the sexes nonesense, I'm just starting daughter No 4 again, (1,2&3 did windsurfing) but it still messes with her hair and for sure as soon as she's out of my influence she'll drop it like a stone, unless of course it involves Crystal and being moored in St Tropez. And if they want a top end state of the art single and double hander, promote a competition for it, but with the caveat it has to be capable of being sailed with its standard rig in all weathers and water conditions. I'll enter the V2
 ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Mar 11 at 3:04pm
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In the end I assume we will end up with just 4 classes, by about 2028 - mens and womens double and singlehanded, because room needs to be made in the Olympic village for darts players and competitive knitters. If that was the case, then what would those classes be? A Doublehander from 1960 and a singlehander from 1970? I may be a classic boat fan, but that doesn't really seem quite right... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 11 at 5:37pm
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>from 1960... doesn't seem quite right
You mean as opposed to discus and javelin events from about 400BC?? regards, Jim C |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Mar 11 at 7:42pm
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The Javelin is rather different to the one thrown back then, and sailing doesn't have the same problem as the javelin, which I believe they had to make less aerodynamic to stop it landing in the crowd. Mind you, it would make the field events more interesting!
By your reckoning they should be sailing Triremes at the games, then? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 11 at 7:53pm
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Row triremes perhaps...
http://www.triremetrust.org.uk/ It would be rather splendid wouldn't it. But I think they'd have trouble fitting all 170 oarsmen on each step of a podium... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 11 at 8:41am
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2 events turned into one, rowing and sailing combined, with the added sport that the winner is the last boat floating. You'd only have to fit the winning crew on the podium, especially in shark infested waters! And there you are - outdoor swimming can be combined with all this, too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 01 Apr 11 at 8:33pm
I think we should have Kite surf pier jumping. What a great spectator sport. Morespills than downhill skiing
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 01 Apr 11 at 11:13pm
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2 points - the most prestigous event in world sailing without the type of sailing practised by the majority of sailors world wide would be a nonsense - the Olympics needs a keelboat. Or, more radically - run all events in Fireflies - singlehanded mens and womens(small rig) doubles mens and womens and all six sailors then compete in a team racing event. Simple, cheap and the team racing would be great on TV Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: a_dowley
Date Posted: 05 Apr 11 at 5:53pm
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I believe it's about having action in our sailing, we need to have boats which attract the media and good sponsors. It's also about keeping the sport close to shore - having seen the ticket allocations for London 2012 it's a joke. There should be people lining each side of the bank watching the racing like the Extreme 40 Series or the Tornado Class's Speed Sailing http://www.speedsailing.org/ - http://www.speedsailing.org/ which was a great success in Travemunde, Germany. Once you have the spectators the sponsors will come and then it's about starting on time no matter what the weather conditions. If it's 2 knots of wind then we need boats which can still sail. The TV won't come back if races don't start on time. Just my thoughts...... ------------- https://www.sailingchandlery.com/rope-for-sale.html" rel="nofollow - Rope for sale https://www.sailingchandlery.com" rel="nofollow - Sailing Chandlery - Online Chandlery - Number 1 Rated |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 06 Apr 11 at 8:20am
+1 ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: RobbieP94
Date Posted: 10 Apr 11 at 10:00pm
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personal my opinion is that ISAF has to many french in the top jobs and the french are the best in 470's so they are clearly looking out for themselves
can you imagine the uproar in Britain is the finn was scrapped? as for a women's skiff i believe the lack of feeder classes for performance boats has been the problem until recently lets be fair the aussie's and kiwi's are the best skiff sailors in the world and frankly we are nowhere near them. I believe sale of 29erXX would increase if it was an olympic class the only reason people see the XX as a failure is because in comparison to the 29er which is the feeder class for the olympic 49er class so therefore gains more attention in the eyes of sailors also why would women buy a skiff if there was no top competition for them to compete in? i think we need to make olympic sailing more spectator friendly, just look at what they are trying to do with America's Cup my opinion scrap the finn for something sportier like Musto Skiff or something with a bit of thrills and spills like an A class as for 470's drop them for something at the cutting edge of the sport like c class cats maybe a bit extreme but we need something which is better to watch maybe RS 800 or something the laser can be boring to watch and also sail but there is little that can be done as it is relatively new to the olympic classes on another point maybe team racing in something fast like 49ers would be ace to watch as a spectaor don't know if anyone agrees but olympics sailing needs to change ------------- Laser GXD 184358 I14 1395 (crew) RS200 352 (crew) Coribee Keelboat (helm) |
Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 9:33pm
| What a load of rubbish about the French. Have you even checked out who is on the various isaf committees? If anyone appears over represented it is the Brits and the yanks. |
Posted By: doeywizard
Date Posted: 30 Apr 11 at 6:32pm
| I agree that the 29xx should be made an olimpic class, I mean why should the men have all of the fun in the 49er. The 470 I think is in need of changing for something a little more entertaining. A high performance single hander would be fun, (international canoe, moth or rs 700) however I am very biast and deffinatly think that the laser is a good choice for a singlehander as it gives people who maybe dont like to sail other stuff (like the rs700) something to have a go at and race top sailers. |
Posted By: Hughph
Date Posted: 30 Apr 11 at 10:10pm
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Laser is already an Olympic Class.. 470 needs to stay- it's a good boat and has some very good racing- we also cannot have 2 male skiff classes.... 29erXX is already being considered for an Olympic boat (Women's Skiff). But, it is rubbish and there are much better boats in the selection- RS800, Rebel (Hartley Boats) etc To see a singlehanded skiff in 2016 would be nice... ------------- |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 05 May 11 at 2:17pm
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ISAF Events Committee recommending following slate of Olympic Events for 2016 to Council for the big vote in the next couple of days: - Board and/or Kiteboard men & women-RS:X/Kiteboard-evaluation - One-person dinghy men-Laser, women-laser radial - 2nd one-person dinghy men-Finn - Two-person dinghy (spinnaker) men & women-470 - Skiff men-49er, women-equipment evaluation - Two-person multihull mixed-equipment evaluation So no keelboats whatsoever (Star and Women's Match Racing), a women's skiff TBD, and a decision between RS:X and kiteboards. Remember this is only the ISAF Events Committee recommendations - the Council can choose (and have done in the past) to completely ignore this! |
Posted By: Foiling_Toff
Date Posted: 05 May 11 at 6:24pm
| The more I think about this the more it occurs that you just can't represent men's and womans windsurfing, kitesurfing dinghy sailing and keelboat sailing in 10 events. It just doesn't fit. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 May 11 at 6:32pm
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I'd be suprised if that slate gets through Council. Whilst I don't believe there's a good solution I think it could be better than that. And I fear no keelboats will doom paralympic keelboats at some future games.
It feels like a first world countries slate to me, and one of the problems sailing has is that its already seen to be too first world... But I don't know what the latest steering coming from the IOC is, and the IOC changes its mind about every six months... |
Posted By: Foiling_Toff
Date Posted: 05 May 11 at 7:42pm
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The one thing that has always bothered me about sailing is the lack of participation from ethnic minorities. It does feel like it's exclusively for the white middle classes. I'm not really sure what is to the blame for this, but making it harder for certain countries to compete in the games can't help. I'm very critical of the Olympics for many reasons, most of all I don't feel it covers what it set out to do. It is hard to make sure everyone is included, but for the Olympics to be at all worthwhile, they have to make every effort. I'll stop now before I get started on an anti-Olympics rant and bore everyone to tears. |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 7:08am
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Andy Rice has written a good article at http://sailjuice.posterous.com/can-the-star-pull-another-fast-one - sailjuice.posterous.com/can-the-star-pull-another-fast-one about ISAF event selection - particularly with the friends the Star class has in high places. If the skiffs are removed in place of the Star / keelboats then, in my opinion, sailing is pretty much doomed at Olympic level. The ISAF Council have form on this (read Andy's comments about the Star getting in for 2000 and the Cascais 2007 ISAF meeting). There is no doubt that some great sailors sail Stars, but they are damn expensive and are now a very, very old design. The skiffs provide excitement, athletism and are modern. If the ISAF Council do overturn the decision then I'd feel rather useless being on the ISAF Events Committee - after all, what's the point doing all the research and discussion into providing a slate of boats, only to find that the 'old boys club' of the ISAF Council go and change things according to what suits them and their mates? Anyway, the ISAF Council haven't voted yet, so lets see if history repeats itself or not... |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 7:20am
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I'd be amazed if we didn't see the Star in Brazil.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 8:38am
Isn't it rather the other way round? Council is the democratic body representing all the nations, whereas the events committee is an old boys club which tends to be the same few people from the same few first world countries... It just amazes me that they want to throw out keelboats, which loads of people sail everywhere, and keep in women's skiff, which practically no-one does anywhere. Andy Rice says ". The OC report found that keelboats would have a hard time justifying their existence in an Olympic Regatta that would address the IOC’s criteria for inclusion" that may be true, but if so its true in spades, doubled and redoubled, for the women's skiff... If I had to pick a slate it would be two boards, two lasers, two 470s, all single sex. One skiff, one Cat, one keelboat and probably the Finn for its sheer popularity. Keelboat could be mixed crew, match racing in the Elliots perhaps, so could multi. Not a great slate, but a damn sight better than the Events committee one as far as inclusion and demonstrated international participation is concerned. |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 8:56am
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Yes, the ISAF Council is appointed by ISAF Member National Authorities (MNA's) and members of the ISAF Council are required to represent their national viewpoint. See http://www.sailing.org/news/26160.php - http://www.sailing.org/news/26160.php I'd be interested to see how many nations could justify the inclusing of the Star as representing their national viewpoint. |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 1:03pm
| Easy Mike...the Brazillians stand a chance of winning a medal then |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 1:15pm
Leadmines are sailed in more countries than skiffs... That would do it. And all female skiffs are hardly sailed at all anywhere. If you look at ISAF class returns then skiffs and multihulls are the disciplines with the lowest International presence, so if you are representing a country where one of the other are not sailed how would you justify voting for them as representing your nation's interests? |
Posted By: Foiling_Toff
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 2:37pm
| Leadmines are sailed at a professional level, so should they be represented at the Olympics at all? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 3:50pm
Athletics sould be out too, by that criteria. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 3:51pm
But all of our Olympic sailing team are professional sailors and most of them sail leadmines. Presumably they do that to make the big money.
There are very few Olympic sports where the competitors are amateur.
So sorry this argument does not work. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Foiling_Toff
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 5:14pm
I won't get into an argument about this as it's not relate the topic, but if it's the case, what is the point in the games at all? |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 7:13pm
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The point of the games is it is for our elite sportspeople and nowadays they are all professional.
A has been said elsewhere the games bring lots of funding to develop people in all sports up to Olympic level. Some of it brushes off at club level.
I am all for top sailors earning a good living from leadmines or extreme cat racing. Some of it makes excellent TV. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 06 May 11 at 9:13pm
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Can I just say that I think the argument that the 49er should be removed because the Olympic bods cant control them is rubbish. Yes it's difficult at times, but have you never seen an F1 driver crash? As for the woman's skiff, what the council need to do is make a decision so that people can commit. I agree, who wants to waste money on a boat that wont take you anywhere? If the committee went ahead and chose the Rebel (or 800) the Francis Peters out there can just get on with it. Sitting in limbo does no good. But the Star? No it shouldn't replace the 49er, and nor should it replace anything else, no way. But we cant ignore it. Maybe we have to just accept that we can never please everyone but have as many events as we can without being silly, represent the major areas? Or am I the one being silly?  |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 07 May 11 at 5:38am
| This from Andy Rice on Sailjuice - http://sailjuice.posterous.com/11th-hour-intervention-from-isaf-exec-smells - |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 07 May 11 at 11:13am
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The decision has been made see http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=156965 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=156965 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 09 May 11 at 11:47am
| oh how I'll chuckle if they select kite-boarding then face a <very> low-wind-speed regatta.... perhaps they'll have to loan the Kierin bike to tow them along a harbour wall or something..... why not include water-skiing, it's about as relevant... |
Posted By: Chas Bedford
Date Posted: 09 May 11 at 2:47pm
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Hmmm..... One multihull, two boards, seven (count'em) different flavours of centreboard monohull, no keelboat. I'm not convinced that is a balanced slate. I would question the distinction between a skiff and a dinghy (other than speed and excitement, in which case the skiff wins) and the need for two different flavours of men's single-hander. ------------- Chas Bedford Isle of Sheppey SC Shadow GBR031 Adrenalin Overdose |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 May 11 at 3:35pm
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Or to put it another way - one light heavyweight class (the Finn), all the others being for skinny, tall middleweights Nothing for the heavyweight sailor, nor for the feather weights. Not exactly inclusive... The Star is out of the Olympics. I predict that it will remain the class of reference for all serious racing sailors, and, like the ex Olympic Dragon, will continue to develop and grow in strength as the worlds premier heavy weight class (they might even get rid of that perverse crew weight limit) Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 May 11 at 4:07pm
Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh... |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 May 11 at 6:54pm
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Perhaps, thus proving that you are not a serious racing sailor... However, if the number of Olympic medallists, World and Continental champions competing is an indicator then the Star is (and I predict will remain) the class that attracts a huge number of top sailors... Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 7:26am
Predictions are a dangerous game - take a look here: http://www.2spare.com/item_50221.aspx - www.2spare.com/item_50221.aspx - it's a great read. A few select quotes from this: - I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone. (Charles Darwin, 1869) - In all likelihood world inflation is over. (IMF CEO, 1959) - Nuclear-powered vacuum cleaners will probably be a reality in 10 years. (Alex Lewyt, 1955) - Who the hell wants to hear actors talk? (H.M. Warner, 1927) - Television won't last because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night. (Darryl Zanuck, 1946) - Transmission of documents via telephone wires is possible in principle, but the apparatus required is so expensive that it will never become a practical proposition. (Dennis Gabor, 1962) |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 9:20am
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I agree - but predictions are a necessary part of any project. As I see it a boat that is the only serious 2 man heavyweight boat offering world class competition, backed by a formidable class association in which top class sailors continue to compete long after they are out of contention for Olympic selection... has a more than good chance to thrive and prosper outside of the Olympics. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 May 11 at 9:40am
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I think you are right, Gordon - the Star will still get the same sort of following as the Echells, where top pro's go to battle it out to find out who is best with no owners around.
I think Jim might be suggesting that this isn't the be all and end all of serious racing? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |