IRC Level rating racing?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Keelboat classes
Forum Name: Keelboat news and development
Forum Discription: All the latest developments for yachts
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6806
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 10:40am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: IRC Level rating racing?
Posted By: gordon
Subject: IRC Level rating racing?
Date Posted: 05 Jun 10 at 9:56am
Now that the level rating class revival is gathering momentum, with the Mini Tonners joining in, is it not now time to envisage the creation of level rating classes for IRC rated boats.
If the gurus at IRC would accept the principle, then boats could apply for a special level rating measurement - the result being given as simply verified corrections to acheive the required rating. The corrections could be expressed in either weight (corrector weights to be positioned as per IRC defined spec) or sail area changes (or a combination of both.
Surely this would allow the return of what many would agree was the very best of racing in small offshore boats.
Gordon Davies
-------------
Gordon
|
Replies:
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 05 Jun 10 at 4:36pm
|
definately one to think about....
do you mean use the old rule parameters (so not hugely modified to irc) but boats can modify to be competitve under irc.
or use a new irc version where boats can be designed from scratch but not out classing the older generation boats.
love this picture of "blue movie" getting some air time going upwind last weekend http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=50073 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=50073
-------------
https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS
https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS
|
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 05 Jun 10 at 6:59pm
I would suggest choosing a more or less round figure which is near the middle of the rating bands of the older boats, so that they can compete together with new boats.
Is there a rating genius who can work this out - I think the whole thing depends on IRC being able to come up with simple data to correct ratings...
Gordon
-------------
Gordon
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Jun 10 at 7:57pm
|
For those of us who are purely dinghy sailors, and so not sure what you are talking about, are you suggesting that lots of boats adjust their rig, ballast, whatever so they end up with the same rating, and so can sail as a fleet together, development class dinghy style? And if you choose a rating in the middle of a band, it means it is easier for more boats to achieve?
Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stck!
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 05 Jun 10 at 8:03pm
All boats race with no corrected time - so they adjust weight, rig etc to get below rating ceiling. This was how the "Ton Cups" worked (with a few rules about motors, stability etc). Remember that the Half Ton Cup did have an offshore, overnight race in the Cup programme.
Gordon
-------------
Gordon
|
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Jun 10 at 8:06am
Originally posted by gordon
I think the whole thing depends on IRC being able to come up with simple data to correct ratings. |
It's an intriguing idea but goes against the "secret rule" principle in providing concrete data that changing x changes the rating by y. Secondly, if you look at the ratings in (say) the quarter tonner fleet there is quite a spread e.g. 0.869 to 0.912 at http://www.warsashspringseries.org.uk/results/whitechampions hipq1.htm. It would take an awful load of lead or sail area to even out that kind of variation.
|
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Jun 10 at 8:09am
Originally posted by gordon
All boats race with no corrected time - so they adjust weight, rig etc to get below rating ceiling. This was how the "Ton Cups" worked |
Also the International Metre classes. The key difference is that IOR and International Rule were public domain so a designer could calculate the rating but IRC is a "black box" system, which is intended to prevent undesirable rule exploitation.
|
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 06 Jun 10 at 9:56am
Part of the variation in the Quarter Tonners is because of the wish to include all former Quarter Tonners in the competition.
However - if the new class rule was for a maximum rating of, for instance, .0890 then a new generation could develop.
I agree that a IRC Level Rating system would torture the "black box" concept somewhat, but I suspect that many naval architects already have some idea of the effect of minor changes to the rating. By limiting the corrections to weight and/or sail area I ma not sure that IRC would become totally transparent.
Gordon
-------------
Gordon
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 11 Jun 10 at 10:04pm
A pretty good idea!
I find the resurgence in IOR only understandable in that there are a lot of cheap boats for current recessionary pockets: it produced boats which could be obselete over night and had various degrees of safety.
One thing the yanks have been ahead of the UK in is having an IRC - S break out fleet at some events for sportier boats of lighter displacement : bavarias need not apply!
|
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 12 Jun 10 at 5:04am
Originally posted by damp_freddie
I find the resurgence in IOR |
There is no resurgence in IOR. There's a resurgence in former IOR boats, most of which have had extensive and expensive surgery to make them competitive IRC boats. Debumped, heavier keels, new rigs.
| One thing the yanks have been ahead of the UK in is having an IRC - S break out fleet at some events for sportier boats of lighter displacement |
Firstly, I'm not too sure the USA actually has any such divisions right now, albeit it's been discussed as a possibility on SA. If you can point us at a results sheet with an "IRC-S" class I'll cheerfully eat my words on that point. Secondly, the UK in fact had LDB and ULDB subdivisions of CHS fleets in the late 80s. Unfortunately not enough owners wanted to play that game.
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 14 Jun 10 at 8:47pm
I meant IOR designs racing under IRC but then again you are a condescending type so what can man expect ?
They have tried out IRC S break outs on Michigan and Chesapeake at some points : we have actually three break outs common on our LYS system in scandinavia: R30, R36 and R40 for racing oriented boats and they are considered the most serious classes outside OD and ORCi. Works very well, although they did send us off with the "beach balls" (40.7s) twice giving a challenging wind shadow for R36.
There are a lot more planing machines about these days falling out of their fleets : the former "Mumms" are an obvious source.
IRC-S break outs based on faster one designs and IOR boats would be a good proposition: a level rating, or very narrow band, is also a very good notion to encourage participation, compeition and new design.
|
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 15 Jun 10 at 5:11am
Originally posted by damp_freddie
They have tried out IRC S break outs on Michigan and Chesapeake at some points : |
Don't think so. I've been following the development of IRC in the USA with some interest and there has been plenty of discussion of break-outs for sportsyacht types but I don't think anyone has done it. Show a result sheet or notice of race and prove me wrong. Strangely enough, I'm actually interested to know and would be entirely content to know I was wrong on this point.
As for my character flaws, yes they are grievous. I have an irritating attachment to facts and the accurate use of words. It annoys my friends, family and colleagues and now it has annoyed you.
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 18 Jun 10 at 8:48am
Hi Stefan and Gordie
I have had some opposition to IRC here, since we have two systems which serve scandinavia well plus a host of local OD racing: IRC is creeping in to my dismay though.
Having had some sporadic "racer" class break outs at clubs and events I had heard of and seen on the electric interweb, I google today that the yank seem to be betting on a narrow-ish band defined by legnth appx 35 feet and a rating over 1.025- scratch boat and up to some level.
They are calling that IRC 35 and funnily enough the list of boats is pretty much identical to those choosing to race in lys R36 here: bendytub 36.7, j109s, tripps, BH36s, X362Ss and so on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LYS_%28sailing%29 -
and for example after three good seasons the 109 went up 3 points, so following the experience of the five or so boats racing as we probably maxed out performance. It is not perfect, and five boats would be meaningless on PY, but it is a common and the committee are pretty good at setting year one rating: because Nav'arcs are involved they claim to use a VPP for y1 rating.
Anyway, the lys R racing class banding and break out serves to make for close and exciting racing with enough OD boats within to have good races within the racing!
|
|