Moth vs 600FF
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6582
Printed Date: 17 Jan 26 at 8:54am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Moth vs 600FF
Posted By: Adamk93
Subject: Moth vs 600FF
Date Posted: 28 Mar 10 at 10:09pm
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This has been posted before (2007) so I wanted to ask again now that both classes have developed more. Been looking in a few places and these days it seems that only really bladeriders are for sale in the moth world whoch are very expensive, while the FFs seem pretty cheap (£2400 ive found). Ive sailed a moth a couple of times now, but not the 600. The moth is VERY cool, smaller and probably 'easier' (pfft) but i like that the 600 has retractable foils and stays upright (im used to skiffs). Really any help on the decision is welcome. Just some quick facts : im getting up to 70 kgs and building, and am growing steadily to 6 ft and have been sailing a musto a bit and a 29er but moving on. Cheers, Adam |
Replies:
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 8:43am
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Well, depends if you want to race it or not. The 600 scene has stopped growing as far as I can tell, while the Moth had over 100 new boats worldwide last year and 40 at the Nationals. While the Moth has developed more, the 600 hasn't really and the Moth is now faster round the cans. There are a few solid Prowlers for sale at the moment in the 5-6K region which would buy you a solid easy to sail boat that can be tuned up to sail with the best of them. As for weight, up to 80kg is fine and the former world champ is 85k. You dont foil as early, but once you do you go faster... ------------- http://www.aardvarkracing.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Home of Rocket Racing |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:22am
| Oh, only 5-6k then. I'll buy 2. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 10:05am
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One pays for cutting edge technology, I'm afraid. Tiz why I sail old wrecks... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 10:59am
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Bearing in mind a new Laser is knocking on the door of £5k once you've bought covers, trailer, go faster bits etc, I don't think that's bad value. You get a handbuilt, carbon fibre state of the art flying machine that is considerably faster than pretty much anything else on the water. ------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 12:55pm
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"state of the art flying machine".......hardly a eurofighter typhoon is it
hahahha. |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 2:00pm
No but to be fair we are talking about boats  ------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 2:16pm
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Moths are not massively over budget and obsolete before they're even used... ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 5:27pm
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The 600FF had a hull, A foiling boat requires no hull, just a floaty bit in the middle to strap all the bits onto.
Thats just my look on it. |
Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 5:45pm
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I know theres many design claims and flaws and that they are rediculous boats, yet a laser is "obselete" and still in the olympics.... anyway i was looking more for comments such as aardvard_issues', however entertaining the general banter is. And I dont think the eurofighter is obselete, i think it's pretty awesome personaly |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 7:37pm
| How much would a new Moth cost then? By the way I did not wish to give offence it's just that my budget usually goes from £0 to £500. |
Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 7:43pm
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The Aardvark ninja (the only boat i actually know the price for) base model is about £8500 although I will get shouted at probably for incorrect figures. I think I heard from somewhere that Simon Payne's Mach 2 cost in the region of £14,000 to make and ship from China! Although that may well be completely wrong so feel free to correct me  £3500 feels good to me for something like this at 2nd hand, given im not going to be a world champion at all  |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 7:59pm
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Adam, I totally understand your prediciment. I converted my old Axeman 6 to the full force foils when they were first released and it was my way of getting flying in a moth on a budget. Although after one season it was very obvious my converted boat was much slower than the newer design as foiler Moths coming out. Mike is right that a few year old Prowler would be a good move for getting started in Moths as they are robust and still close enough on pace for starting but they are still probably more expensive than I think you maybe want to spend. The 600FF is a very different beast in my eyes simply because of the addition of the wire. I have not had a proper go of one yet but they do appear pretty crazy from some of the videos I have watched. The video of Sam at one of the big winter handicap events a couple of years ago makes it look so easy but I bet its blooming difficult. However if you are already comfortable on a wire then that is maybe one hurdle out of the way? Good luck with your choice as lets face it - its a nice decision to be making. Cheers, Keith. ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 8:22pm
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I know this is slightly off topic but a thought about the moth/600FF situation has just come to me, and i'm wondering why no one has done this already. A moth is designed to be as light as possible, and so is made from carbon fibre and is only a foot wide. A 600 is, in comparison, a big lumbering tub and designed to go over the top of the water with some sort of balance and not above it, hence why it is a lot wider. Now, the moth is designed just for foiling, whereas the 600 is not. So why has no one made a Moth but in 600 scale instead of sticking some foils on something not designed for it? What I mean is using the rig and racks from a 600FF but with a hull that is to a similar design of the latest moths. Surely this would increase the speed of the thing, and allow it to foil a lot earlier due to the powerful rig and low weight. Would this work? Or would the larger sail create too much drag at higher speeds, limiting the potential of the craft and rendering it pointless? Who wants to help me build one and find out? ------------- |
Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 8:36pm
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I thought the whole point of the FF was the fat hull that meant it was stabler and easier to launch etc. Plus it could be kept for class racing. Hence full force saying it was the "cheapest way to fly". Have you checked out the Mirabaud LX? It was an 18ft skiff, but then had the hull removed and now its just sealed pipeworking as an aerospace frame! mad!! |
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:02pm
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Yes I initially thought about a Mirabaud type design but
then realised that it would be insanely impossible to launch, which is why I was thinking along the lines of a Moth hull but just stretched out to 14 feet. Also like the Bladerider and Mach 2 it would have the bouyancy tanks sewn into the edges of the tramps to help with preventing capsizing whilst not foiling, e.g. waiting around on start lines. ------------- |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:07pm
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what you need is a 300 hull with the wings off and racks fitted! ------------- |
Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:12pm
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oh yes Merlin Boy, and i could make it really narrow and add hydrofoils and then it would.... oh wait, isnt that just a moth? I generally view most RS boats as more modern/up to date and possibly slightly more user friendly versions of other boats. But i dont want to open up that can of worms which im sure has been well fought over! I might just sit and think pleasant thoughts of flying instead |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:15pm
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Sorry i was just replying to Saltys point, the narrow under what sechion of the 300 is like a 14 ft moth!! It was a valid point not worthy of sarcasim ------------- |
Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:16pm
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Oh and Keith that is exactly what my friend has done. He has recently bought White Knuckle Express and its working fine for him. However atm there are NO boats at that price on the market, only low riders and I am not skillful enough to try the convert myself (i want a boat left at the end) and that would still cost a reasonable amount.
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Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:24pm
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Sorry I didn't mean to be. If I may be forgiven and allowed to chip in, I think the 600 would be ebtter to narrow down, tha conver the 300. The 600 already has the foiling mainsail which could be made shallower im sure. And it can be reefed all for less drag. But then youd have to sort out a different attatchment point for the shrouds so maybe the 300 would be better. im never going to be a boat designer, so many holes to fall into... but fun to try and solve :) |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:28pm
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Keep your eye on the Moth for sale site - the cheaper boats do come up pretty regularly as people tend to move up the ladder. The also get snapped up pretty quickly mind... I know of one that may be about to come on the market and will try and remember you when I see him next! ------------- http://www.aardvarkracing.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Home of Rocket Racing |
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 9:42pm
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Ive been thinking some more (my brain is hurting now) and
ive come up with an idea for the starting point of a developement. Ingredients: 1x Dart 15 hull 1x set of RS600 wings with controls 1x RS600 Rig 1x Laser or Topper mast section (for bracing of racks) 1x hydrofoil rudder 1x hydrofoil dagger with wand control Some carbon and epoxy. Method: Bolt everything together. (It would pretty much be a 600FF but with a dart hull) Anyone care to donate? I joke. This is just a random dream I have had of building a potentially decent boaty type thing. Who knows, maybe one day i will build it. ------------- |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 10:04pm
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wow White Knuckle is a piece of history. Tell your friend to take care of her...... as I said totally appretiate your problem and unless there are any cheaper foilerws come up you may be bst with the 600FF but beware for the odd flying leaps of the wire! Good luck, Cheers, Keith
------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 10:19pm
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Salty, I believe long ago a Moth sailor cut down a unicorn hull to make a Moth. Dart 15 hull with skeg and all may not be the right choice - why not an A class hull?! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 10:34pm
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Couldnt the skeg be cut off and the gap be glassed over?
An A class hull would be a good choice but rather more expensive im guessing. ------------- |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 30 Mar 10 at 12:37am
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i want a moth, 1 foot longer with more power in the rig so that i can foil at
90 kilos. i would love to fo it, but sadly being 6'4" there is f all chance of me getting down to even 85 kilos |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 30 Mar 10 at 9:22am
The hull length is irrelevant - if you want to foil at the same time as the smaller guys you just need a bigger main foil. Having said that , if you can put up with foiling later in the light airs then you will go faster than them them on the same foils once going. Foiling has done some pretty strange things to the weight range purely based on the amount of apparent being generated - in 12 knots of wind I'm seeing 20+knot apparent upwind and at 70 kilos I'm heavily depowered on 8M square. I dont think its got anything to do with how heavy you actually are as to rather making sure you know how to get your kit to work for you... ------------- http://www.aardvarkracing.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Home of Rocket Racing |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 10 at 10:14am
| The A Class Hull thing has been done by Steve (Cogito) Clark in the USA. |
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 30 Mar 10 at 7:42pm
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I had a bit of time on my hands so i did a rough sketch on Photoshop of what i want to build one day. Its pretty much a 600FF but the hull is long and thin and gradually tapers to a sharpish point at the front. Its kinda like the Mach 2 design except longer and with the raked bow being more swept back and a more curved structure, similar to the floats on BOR90.
------------- |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 31 Mar 10 at 1:03pm
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Why not draw up development class rules for a longer 'moth' with more sail? You could call it the ....... Behemoth. |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 31 Mar 10 at 2:13pm
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Here's one I made earlier... looking a bit similar to the salty sketch. but it's a moth / IC hybrid - with a kite and a T-foil rudder. ( converted from IC, hence XC on the sail ) it's even got the fashionable raked bow. Not much news about sailing it to report yet though ( except that the flexible gantry for the adjustable T foil was too - err, flexible - to the point of failure. ) This could be the base for a development class single hander + kite, no foiling flying ).  ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 10 at 2:17pm
http://www.devboats.co.uk/plusplus/hullrule.htm - I did. No-one came. |
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 31 Mar 10 at 3:35pm
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Andy your XC is the closest thing ive seen to the idea i
had in my head. The only things what would be different are a thinner hull (i know the canoe isnt exactly a fat boy but width isnt needed when foiling is it), a trapeze and a more pointy bow like a very long taper to a more bullet like shape. ------------- |
Posted By: chrisg
Date Posted: 01 Apr 10 at 11:31am
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This interests me, being on the erm larger side of 85 kilos, the moth is the one boat that i have always dreamed of sailing yet never have. Are you saying that you can get bigger foils to help earlier foiling for the larger gent? What are the rules regarding foil size? What is max sail size for a moth? ------------- |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 01 Apr 10 at 12:27pm
| Chris, im sure Mike would make a set of foils for you if you ever had a moth. In terms of foil you can increase the span or use a different section. Invariably there will be a bigger drag penalty but this can to some extent be balanced by the ability to push the boat harder thanks to greater leverage. The downside is that some of the current fly-boys have optimized the structure on their foils so they have little margin. Adam May once offered me a go in his boat when we were over in Bristol Rhode Island for the C-class champs in 2004 but before committing asked me how heavy I was. Being around 84kg I was approx 10kg too heavy for his foils so no go!!! Obviously time has moved on and the mainstream foils can probably take a bit more now. |
Posted By: simon hiscocks
Date Posted: 05 Apr 10 at 7:01pm
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Having just read this thread I feel I might offer some opinion.
First as a follower of the forum I think it is correct to state self interests before offering opinion which I have done at the bottom of the following rambling; The 600ff is a converted coventional boat. The 600 was and still is a great little boat well designed and built with a loyal following. Off course the mps and 700 have arguably moved the genre on and this creates another reason why it works. The moth is a highly developed development class which will continue to move on. The latest boats from the likes of mach2 and bladerider are well polished and finished pieces of near artwork, whilst they are expensive it might be argued that they represent value for speed/quality. The other options such as the Ninja offer a less expensive option but still in the 10k region. Ultimately they will all become out developed. There are currently two foiling options the Moth or the 600ff. The 600ff is by no means the ideal solution it is a compromise, but it is not a bad compromise and it is not slow. Faster than a moth on certain points of sail ( the moth has the legs around the course ) The 600ff costs from £2500 spend £5000 and you garrantee a competitive boat. A foil set costs £3000 plus what ever you can find a 600 for I just bought one for £500. New sail cost £700. But is not essential just a bit quicker once foiling. ( there are a few already converted bargains out there ) The boats wont be out developed my was bought 3 years ago and is still as fast as any other boat including the carbon ones. The class is not dead! We have a new website, ok it is a facebook page but it can be accessed by anyone via www.rs600ff.net We have a uk circuit which consists of one event - our National championship. It is spread over 3 weekends the first of which is fast approaching 17th and 18th April at Weymouth and Portland. Each event has a points weighting system with high points scoring. This means that by the last event the points are multiplied by a factor of 10 ( yet to be decided ) so that it is still possible to get a good result from just the last event but points mean points and the more you get on the board the better. High points scoring means no discards required. We have a set of class rules in the making. With a minimum all up boat weight of 90kg the Carbon ones come out all up at 80kg so they need to add 10kg of lead. We are looking to the future and some of the ideas posted on this forum have already been suggested. We have some unique ideas on the table some of which will revolutionise how we approach our boats/classes and sailing. All of this has yet to be discussed with the current 600ff sailors so you will have to wait to find out. * Perfect starter foiler to lead on to the Moth when you have learnt the art. * The boat is far from perfect but remember that it costs £4 - 5k for a competitve package. * Foiling from the wire is a really cool experience. * It floats and you can stop and chill. * It takes a higher crew weight over 70kg up to over 100kg see ardvark issues comments on weight and foiling. * The boats are robust and rarely break. * Many used boat available to add foil package to * RS parts and service to replace the boat parts. * One design with a bit more freedom within the boat than the standard RS600. My disclaimer of self interest is that I have taken on running the class, we have set up our own class association and I also sell the boats and parts. All of this is being developed as we go as it has to be fitted in around earning a living. I also have a moth at least it is a project that has been started and may one day be finished at least I aspire to be on the water in 2010 in both classes. I feel that the 600 has given me the skills to master the moth once I get one on the water. Why would I spend my own precious free time doing this? Because I bought a 600 when it all started as I saw what it offered and wanted a part of it. I Still have the boat and the more I sail it the more I like it no one else was doing the class so I took it on. Come and join us its a recession beater like no other. |