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29erXS- how cool?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6508
Printed Date: 30 Jun 25 at 3:03am
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Topic: 29erXS- how cool?
Posted By: narc
Subject: 29erXS- how cool?
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 12:08pm
The 29er doesn't have loads of sail and is a lightweights boat already - I'm not sure a mini rig is really needed?



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by narc

The 29er doesn't have loads of sail and is a lightweights boat already - I'm not sure a mini rig is really needed?


This thread?
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6497 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6 497

I'm not a great fan of these different sized rigs. Better to match rig and hull to my mind, otherwise you end up with out of proportion nastiness like the Laser 4.7.

But getting younger sailors back into two handers is surely a good thing, and trapeze boats for the 11-14 age group have a long history in Australia.


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 12:27pm
I reckon kids think that trapeze boats 'are like soo kewl'.
The ones at our club certainly thought our Vago was cool
but I supposed when you've been sailing a Topper for you
entire young life...

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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 1:44pm

I'm not sure whether putting on a smaller rig will address most kids' (people's!) basic problem with the 29er - the lack of inherent stability in the hull.

I could imagine that taking away the steadying (damping) effect of the bigger rig might make the boat more twitchy. Certainly that's been my observation when e.g. people have reefed their L2k's - the difference betwen the gusts and lulls is still a problem. The only time it would certainly help would be if you were consistently overpowered in steady winds, but that's not the problem I saw our juniors having when they were starting out in 29ers.



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Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

I'm not sure whether putting on a smaller rig will address most kids' (people's!) basic problem with the 29er - the lack of inherent stability in the hull.

I could imagine that taking away the steadying (damping) effect of the bigger rig might make the boat more twitchy. Certainly that's been my observation when e.g. people have reefed their L2k's - the difference betwen the gusts and lulls is still a problem. The only time it would certainly help would be if you were consistently overpowered in steady winds, but that's not the problem I saw our juniors having when they were starting out in 29ers.

MM it is a skifff, after all...

Oops! can opened, worms everywhere... (Quote)



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Pass the skiff, man!


Posted By: rs405
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 2:10pm

It looks like they are filling the gap left by the Hobie 405s demise. Lightweights, asymetric, small sails and very twitchy! Probably a market for it.

That said it is probably just another hash together job like the 29erXX!



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420, 470, 405, laser 4000


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 2:19pm
Any pictures?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 2:19pm

For sure, I wouldn't want to sail an XS in light airs, with its reduced sail area/wetted area ratio. The 29er is not exactly a flier in the light stuff already, and even a featherweight crew won't compensate for lack of sail area. 

Won't feel very cool when the Wayfarers, Kestrels and Ents start gliding past...



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Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 2:29pm

I think it's a great idea.

As you say, it's kool and doesn't look like a kid's boat, and when they get bigger or more experienced, simply get them a new rig.

You'll then start to get 2nd-hand XS rigs coming onto the market, which will enable parents to buy a cheap used 29er, and a used XS rig, so getting their kids on the water without breaking the bank.

A well thought-out idea if you ask me. One which gets my vote.



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12ft Skiff - Gordon Keeble and the Furry Fly-by
AC - GBR271 - Whoosh
B49 - Island Alchemy


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 4:11pm
We do love to buy into a BRAND in the UK. Don't we .......Baarrr! Baaar!

To be honest I'm uncomfortable with how the brand extension of the 29er
could affect other boats. All at minimum risk for the 29er.

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Posted By: Flick-Flock
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

I'm not sure whether putting on a smaller rig will address most kids' (people's!) basic problem with the 29er - the lack of
inherent stability in the hull.


I could imagine that taking away the steadying (damping) effect of the bigger rig might make the boat more twitchy. Certainly that's been my
observation when e.g. people have reefed their L2k's - the difference betwen the gusts and lulls is still a problem. The only time it would certainly help
would be if you were consistently overpowered in steady winds, but that's not the problem I saw our juniors having when they were starting out in
29ers.



Although less weight high up would help make the boat a bit more stable.

I think if it is well designed then its great. Like Jim said, the Aussies get their kids into trapeze and skiff sailing early one, which probably explains
why they are so good in the 470 and 49er.
Anything that keeps kids sailing as the get older is a good thing imo

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Swimming after Laser 5000 5069


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by rs405

It looks like they are filling the gap left by the Hobie 405s demise. Lightweights, asymetric, small sails and very twitchy! Probably a market for it.

That said it is probably just another hash together job like the 29erXX!

Isnt that what the RS feva was suposed to be for?

By reading the article (I know nothing of the boat) its aimed at small and young children with little experience with Spinaker's after coming out of (im assuming) Optamist's? adding a trapeze to the kite learning experience and the tippyness of skiff sailing isnt that a bit hard for kididie's or am I underestimating them or am I thinking of really small young kids.?

I know Trapezing is like "Uber" cool but I've actually gone back to saingle handed hiking boats (europe/CII) against the Vago....Ok still prefer the Vago in a big breeze



Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

I think it's a great idea.


As you say, it's kool and doesn't look like a kid's boat, and when they get
bigger or more experienced, simply get them a new rig.


You'll then start to get 2nd-hand XS rigs coming onto the market, which
will enable parents to buy a cheap used 29er, and a used XS rig, so getting
their kids on the water without breaking the bank.


A well thought-out idea if you ask me. One which gets my
vote.


Yo! Mine too! (obviously!)

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Pass the skiff, man!


Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

We do love to buy into a BRAND in the UK. Don't we
.......Baarrr! Baaar!

To be honest I'm uncomfortable with how the brand extension of the 29er
could affect other boats. All at minimum risk for the 29er.


Itīs called class development and evolution. Get used to it. (Time to be
flogged in the hay loft with a tennis racket and fed to the ferrets, Mr.
Sparrow - ah, memories! )

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Pass the skiff, man!


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 03 Mar 10 at 8:07pm
Not wishing to deviate too much off topic, but in that release there was
mention of Ovington and the Open Bic, what's that all about then?

Are they distributing it now?



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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Mar 10 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Slippery Jim

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

We do love to buy into a BRAND in the UK. Don't we
.......Baarrr! Baaar!

To be honest I'm uncomfortable with how the brand extension of the 29er
could affect other boats. All at minimum risk for the 29er.


Itīs called class development and evolution. Get used to it. (Time to be
flogged in the hay loft with a tennis racket and fed to the ferrets, Mr.
Sparrow - ah, memories! )


Yes I know what it is but it doesn't mean I have to be happy with it. What the 9er is doing makes total business sense but I have the feeling that the XS and the XX will damage existing classes without developing into something worthwhile themselves. The XS is essentially a loss leader for the 29er and the XX is a brand enhancer / media tool for the 29er. This all ends in lots more 29er hulls being sold, good news for all concerned with them, but maybe bad news for other classes.


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Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 04 Mar 10 at 12:23pm

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Originally posted by Slippery Jim

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

We do love to buy into a BRAND in the UK. Don't we
.......Baarrr! Baaar!

To be honest I'm uncomfortable with how the brand extension of the 29er
could affect other boats. All at minimum risk for the 29er.


Itīs called class development and evolution. Get used to it. (Time to be
flogged in the hay loft with a tennis racket and fed to the ferrets, Mr.
Sparrow - ah, memories! )


Yes I know what it is but it doesn't mean I have to be happy with it. What the 9er is doing makes total business sense but I have the feeling that the XS and the XX will damage existing classes without developing into something worthwhile themselves. The XS is essentially a loss leader for the 29er and the XX is a brand enhancer / media tool for the 29er. This all ends in lots more 29er hulls being sold, good news for all concerned with them, but maybe bad news for other classes.

That's all very well, but if the classes aren't delivering what the sailing public wants... It's time to remove the established protectionism endemic in this sector. Open it up. Times change and so does sailing...



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Pass the skiff, man!


Posted By: rs405
Date Posted: 04 Mar 10 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by zailor

Originally posted by rs405

It looks like they are filling the gap left by the Hobie 405s demise. Lightweights, asymetric, small sails and very twitchy! Probably a market for it.

That said it is probably just another hash together job like the 29erXX!

Isnt that what the RS feva was suposed to be for?

This XS thing will have more in common with the 405 than the Feva. The 405 was GRP and had a propper, though small rig. The rig had spreaders and the hull was designed to take rig tension. This also meant that the boat could handle a trapeze. The result was a useful platorm for teaching the boat set up and trapeze skills that are transferable on to the 29er etc. Untill recently the 405 was a feeder class for the 29er, but now the class doesn't really exist as far as I can tell, and this XS thing will fill that gap nicely. 



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420, 470, 405, laser 4000


Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 04 Mar 10 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by ellistine

I reckon kids think that trapeze boats
'are like soo kewl'.
The ones at our club certainly thought our Vago was cool
but I supposed when you've been sailing a Topper for you
entire young life...


Mister Nick is not amused by your stereotypical attitude
towards children.... We are not all illiterate mongrels.

Anyway, I'm 14 and this new rig sounds amazing! I would
definitely like to use it when it comes out, would make
the transition into 29er's far easier. I just think its
likely to cost a fair bit.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Mar 10 at 8:29pm
I guess it goes head to head with the V3000, but if the market is there, why hasn't that sold faster?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 10 at 12:21am

Originally posted by Rupert

I guess it goes head to head with the V3000, but if the market is there, why hasn't that sold faster?

Simples, because the V3k is not backed by the marketing power of Ovington, RS or Laser...   But actually, on a good day a V3k can see off normal club-standard 29ers; I'd have thought that the XS will likely be slower than a V3k except in a honking blow when it will see everything off, 420-style!



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http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 10 at 5:00am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by Rupert

I guess it goes head to head with the V3000, but if the market is there, why hasn't that sold faster?

Simples, because the V3k is not backed by the marketing power of Ovington, RS or Laser...

Although the V3k's predecessor was... Certainly there has been improvements in the boat since Laser gave it up, but then reflecting on Rupert's quote, maybe that is why they did.



Posted By: Adamk93
Date Posted: 06 Mar 10 at 9:14pm
i'm moved into the 29er at 13 and struggled - i moved straight from an oppie!!!!
but less rig will make it worse!!! at least in light airs youll be able to move with the standard rig and then in stronger winds the boat wont be going fast enough to be stable!!!

I still dont see whats wrong with just going straight from one boat to the next, why have so many jumping steps in between?


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Mar 10 at 9:45pm
blimey that thing looked awful- especially the jib clew!

Saw a 2yr old (at a guess) on the 49er, heading straight for the trapezes. Start em young!

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-_
Al


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 06 Mar 10 at 10:08pm
It just looked...well....odd. Small rig on a big boat. If I was a youth I would rather have a small rig on a small boat, like a Hobie 405.


Posted By: rs405
Date Posted: 07 Mar 10 at 8:49pm
I have to say that I saw the 29erXS and thought 'what a hash'. Its just another botch job like the XX, only more so. If they are so keen on expanding their range a 19er, as a complete fresh start would have been miles better. I think there is a market for a 405 replacement. but that aint it.  

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420, 470, 405, laser 4000


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 07 Mar 10 at 10:03pm

I was told that they were considering putting buoyancy tubes under each gunwale (stabilizers!) to damp the rolly-tendency; how cool is that?! Apparently the demand for such  product came out of Italy  - a bambino-boat, thus.

The rig was tiny for the size of boat; I'd hate to race it in light airs. But the pair of tots I saw looking at it who I'd have said were a bit small for a Mirror or Feva probably found it very cool! Their dad looked as if he might be prepared to shell out money for it too.



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http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 07 Mar 10 at 11:17pm
To be completely honest i thought it looked a bit crap. I do like the
new 49er rig, first time iv seen it up close!

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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 08 Mar 10 at 8:00am
I get the feeling it was a stand traffic generator. A bit like the 'tomahawk' foiler last time? If it is indeed to go into production I stand by what I said on the second page of this thread.

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Posted By: The Big Wednesday
Date Posted: 08 Mar 19 at 11:46pm
Somewhat late in the day but better late than never.    Save a lot of money and get a Hobie 405 if you're looking for a more manageable single trapeze asymmetric for juniors.    It's more challenging than a Feva or Topaz, and the like but less of a handful (and cheaper to run) than a 29-er.   My son is 13 and an ex-Tera sailor and had no issues getting to grips with the 405.

Below is a new online resource for junior sailors interested in finding out about the HOBIE 405, a performance dinghy that was (and is) much ahead of its time in many respects. The Hobie 405 was designed from the ground up as the RYA intermediate youth training dinghy, not a leisure boat with go-faster add-ons. With great build quality, an asymmetric, single wire and PY of 1089 it  ticks a lot of teenage boxes and still offers a manageable and very affordable entry into real asymmetric sailing for younger sailors.  With competitive 2nd hand examples often around the Ģ500.00 mark with combi, what's not to like?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/309480016377777/?ref=gs&fref=gs&dti=1026807747364902&hc_location=group" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/groups/309480016377777/






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