59er sailing.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6161
Printed Date: 17 Jan 26 at 8:53am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 59er sailing.
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Subject: 59er sailing.
Date Posted: 24 Nov 09 at 5:31pm
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Hello,
Ok. I confess, Iīve had a 59er for about a year now and sail on the Ammersee lake near Munich. The boatīs a real blast for inland waters with the occasional 6-7. We weigh 165Kg, so ideal crew weight. Iīve found out that the 59er class association is being revived and things are going to happen. The flipside is that I am probably the only 59er sailor on the European mainland. Iīm prepared to travel however 
Any advice? (Apart from rigging a trap (done) and reselling (forget it!) Cheers! Jim. GBR 103 (Slippery-When-Wet)  ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Replies:
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 28 Nov 09 at 12:11pm
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Boing! ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 28 Nov 09 at 3:03pm
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I would say that no one can help you no many have got one and i think i have only ever seen one in all my sailing time doomed i think just enjoy the boat ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Nov 09 at 3:59pm
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I'd think that much of what has been written for the other Bethwaite skiffs will be useful, if adjusted to suit. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 29 Nov 09 at 10:20am
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Thanks lads for the feedback.
@Rockhopper I do and I shall continue to enjoy the boat. Light-medium strength wind bomb! Super for lakes and quite nice on the sea too!!!! @Rupert My crewmate has two 29ers and trains with his kids. So I get all his training experience in concentrated form. The learning curve is steep but doable, luckily since Iīm used to sailing a little in N12s, a boat thatīs almost as tippy as a skiff, but not quite one itself. Iīve had 14 knots out of her in 3-4Bft, so the hullīs reasonably well driven. The first time we were out, we easily got above hull speed (5.3 knots) in 3 knots of wind, judging from the bow wave. You donīt notice the boat go onto the plane, since the drag curve is linear and there are no sudden increases in sheet tension which you get on many other boats. They squat when they come off the plane and require proportionately much more power to go back on the plane due to an S-shaped drag curve. Thatīs why you feel the increase in sheet tension so much. The 59er doesnīt suffer from this marginal planing drag and just keeps on going. In principle, the 59er is like a stretched 29er with a rounder bilge up front. Easier to roll tack than either 29er or 49er since the chines are further aft and not quite so pronounced. Flipside is that you really have to watch the gusts, since she is quite rank. But I love her. Forget the sportscar, give me a skiff anytime! Cheers! Jim. 59er GBR103 Slippery When Wet. PS. John Bennett is reviving the Class Association. Great!  ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 29 Nov 09 at 12:59pm
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Well there are a couple about up on the North Kent coast, one for certain
is sailing with trap wires now, the other that I know of a couple of friends of mine occasionally sail out of Whitstable, but struggle with it. You really would be better off dumping it and buying the Alto. None of those Bethwaite boats are really suitable for casual weekend sailors with jobs. The couple with the 59 er , he has an MPS, I went sailing with him the very last time I used one and made the decision I'd been totally wasting my time. All they do is slowly but surely wear away at the confidence of otherwise good sailors to the point that eventually they make excuses not to sail. They can't turn round and admit they're not up to it, especially after a lifetime of sailing all manner of craft. So from regular sailing it becomes infrequent good condition only sailing, then the tides wrong, then eventually other things come along.. That's why those boats didn't catch on. (imho) ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 29 Nov 09 at 3:22pm
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You've been through these threads, I guess?: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/search.asp?KW=59er&SM=1&SI=TC&FM=8&OB=1 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/search.asp?KW=59er&am p;SM=1&SI=TC&FM=8&OB=1
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 1:56pm
Yeah all except the tuning thread, but thanx MM!
------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 2:15pm
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Well, I guess I think I can understand why you'd recommend the Alto, in view of the obvious competition from the 505. Why you'd want a boat with an S-shaped drag curve like that I don't know. The 59er is a different class of boat, requiring a somewhat different apparoach to sailing. Luckily our combined crew weight seems to work (160-65 Kg), and our settings worked first time for the shroud tension. I think you either like 'em or loath 'em. those that can sail 'em do and like it and those that can't dont and moan. My advice to your buddies at Whitstable is to try flat water sailing first. If it still doesn't work for them, they should sell the boat and buy a standard, off the shelf water-pusher, where you'll feel safer, but wont get that speedboat feeling. In stead what you get is this rise and squat feeling when the breeze comes on a surge and then fades. Typical of baots with an s-shaped drag curve. Typical example, an Alto, which attracts some sailors G.R.F. for obvious reasons..... The main reason the boat didn't catch on was that there were too few people capable of sailing the thing correctly right from the start. It's more or less like a somewhat overpowered 29er and takes brains and technique as well as brawn to sail. Now, if you'll excuse me, that's enough d**k measurement for now. I have a thread to write....
------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 2:30pm
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I think it also had problems in that a "difficult to sail welll, high performance two man hiker" is a tiny niche to aim for. Whilst I love the B14 (which is arguably more difficult), it's not like there's massive numbers of those have sold. The 59er would really have needed to kill the B to succeed, but it is a slower boat- hardly stood a chance. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 2:52pm
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Thanks for the critique and input lads. As for the B14 vs. 59er thingy, I'm not going there. The two boats have their respective advantages/disadvantages. As for being slower than a B14, it's interesting to note that the 59er was faster upwind in restricted waters than the 49er, due to it being better to roll-tack. Naturally, downwind, there's no doubt the B14 is faster, but the 59er is easier to kite launch and the drops are much cleaner due to the shute. I guess I'm happy with what I've got. As for increased boat sales or further manufacture, I'm not sure. I'm certainly not holding my breath. Dave Hall is apparently very supportive. John Bennett is doing the donkey work at the moment to revive the class and I'm just using my mouth. Jim. ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 2:59pm
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I wasn't trying to start a B14 V 59er arguement :). I was just saying it's a major factor in why there's so few 59ers around. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 3:04pm
| I think the 59er looks like a great boat, i for one would love one as a second boat. The problem is finding one! The other problem is the price people ask for a second hand racing dinghy with no class back up. (I can see it from their point of view guessing how much they probably paid for it new!) The 59er looks perfect for me and my brother to sail when we do the handicap events, Does anyone fancy lending us one??!! |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 3:09pm
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No axe to grind Al!!
------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 3:14pm
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If you fancy coming over to Munich on a cheap sleezy jet flight next summer, you can try it on the Ammersee. No probs, beer and brezen all inc. I'll be going up to Belgium and North France a couple of times to link up with the skiffbenelux.com sailors. LucM did have a go on the Ovingtons demo boat, but plumped for an RS400. Keep in touch, Jim.
------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 6:46pm
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I'm delighted to read of the class association revival as the 59er is our "must sail" boat, admired in the past at the Dinghy Show. I don't want to scramble around on wings or racks or dangle on a wire, just hike, and we're overweight for many double handers so the 150kg is easy. Maybe the class association revival will bring more boats out of hiding and hopefully onto the market. |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 30 Nov 09 at 8:24pm
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Great stuff Patj!
Where do you sail? Hae you got in touch with John Bennett? Tel. No.īs on in the 59er class section under "Calling all 59er owners" Cheers! Jim B. 59er GBR103 Slippery When Wet. ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 01 Dec 09 at 12:45pm
Well, as you already mentioned Luc I would like to correct your statement: Luc did not just "have a go" but raced the demo boat for some time with several interested crews "having a go" in BENELUX. However, neither him nor us others of SKIFFBENELUX got convinced by the boat. Luc himself "plumped" as you would say for an RS800 instead. If you want to help your "class", maybe you should move a little bit more carefully when "using your mouth" in general... Or, even better, win some races with it at SKIFFBENELUX
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Dec 09 at 12:54pm
That seems like a very aggressive and offensive reply to a quite harmless and inoffensive comment... Perhaps you should rephrase it. |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 01 Dec 09 at 1:27pm
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It was not meant to be "offensive" or "aggressive" in any way, the "using mouth" expression was partly taken from an earlier post by Slippery Jim . Can I hide behind needing some more cross cultural training for now? Even if my wording is not appropriate I still believe the point needed to be made and could be helpful for the future, sorry. |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 01 Dec 09 at 6:52pm
No problem skslr! I thought Iīd made a mistake about RS400/800! Here however is a quote from one of his postings, so maybe HE got it wrong!?! LucM "have sailed 490 for many years and owned an RS600 (though never sailed it a lot), turned to RS400 sailing in 2004" Thanks for the "correction". As for "having a go", thatīs more or less how Luc phrased it to me. You should read the recent banter on the skiffbenelux forum perhaps (anyone can - itīs in English) One final thing, in native English language circles, self irony is considered to be a higher form of wit, indicating the generosity and light-heartedness of the person making the statement. Still, saying that, donīt drag your lower lip in the sand īcos weīre all good pals here. (Sounds off, of burying the hatchet and all that sort
of thing...) (Freisegler hier, wie Du wahrscheinlich weiß . Ich dachte, der
Kriegsbeil wurde begraben? ) Actually Lads and lasses, skslr is quite ok. I know him from a German language forum. ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 3:38pm
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Luc definitely nows his stuff... He sailed the RS400, then the 59er and following that "experience" joined the RS800 fleet, i.e. the 59er demo was later than 2004. Not sure if I need to read about that in another forum after having raced against him being in each of these boats. The class needs your enthusiasm, especially in Germany. Negative and even incorrect comments on other peoples choices/capabilities like in this thread might be overdoing it, though. Or is all of that a kind of self irony I completly missed? |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 6:00pm
Wonderful! Yes, yours IS a complete missunderstanding of the whole point of my posting. "The class needs your enthusiasm, especially in Germany". Agreed! "Negative and even incorrect comments on other peoples choices/capabilities like in this thread might be overdoing it, though." You have already been informed by at least one other who posts here that what I wrote in a previous posting would have been considered by the majority to be very light-hearted and certainly not to be taken in such a serious a vein as you are doing now. Irrespective of your answer and as to whether I decide to post further about the 59er class or not and irrespective of my apparently irrelevant/incorrect/comments and/or ignorance in this matter - and for which I would like to apologise to LucM - the 59er class will still continue on since the boat speaks for itself. As a final comment, elsewhere you have felt prompted to critisise the 59er, since inter alia, what I enthused about in the other forum apparently didnīt fit into the way you thought about the 59er with respect to your class, the RS800. So, we had alittle disagreement... Now here you say that the 59er needs (my) support, especially in Germany, ironically after having been negative about the boat in a German forum....Rather patronising, donīt you think? So, to quote a famous author, "So long, and thanks for all the fish." Signing off... ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 7:52pm
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You know, speaking as a part time printer, one of the problems here is with the font skslr is using, which makes everything come out a little shouty. Add to that 2nd language problems (I'm assuming he is German?) and one gets an argument going where none existed. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 9:27pm
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I was a one time printer, so totally get your font pov.
So clearly what is needed now on this thread is a bit of sans serif italian input perhaps. To really liven things up.  ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 9:45pm
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Oh, yes, I failed to give bonus points to the 59er for being designed by the Bethwaites as compared to being designed by others. (Morrison comes to mind...) Not good. Nevertheless I think the 59er with all of it's pro's and con's could coexist with RS800 as well as other similar boats in Germany quite nicely as it covers a different market niche. Looking at similar existing conventional classes 'single trapeze' might be better received than 'no trapeze'. The GER 9er dealer is in a tricky situation as he is also a leading supplier of 505's, so some independent promotion is maybe even more important than in GBR. Thats's it from my side - sorry for wasting everybody's time.
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Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 03 Dec 09 at 7:58am
skslr thank you for your input. I think the pros and cons of the 59er are very much subjective, perhaps also having something to do with crew weight. I deliberately chose the boat because I'm Finn side of heavy as opposed to the Laser side of light. If you're not up in the high 160's kilowise with this boat, you'll have difficulty. As you have apparently sailed her before, you'll know she's also quite unforgiving and not at all "dumbed down" for slower, heavier sailors, as some might have one believe. Frank Bethwaite also thinks that the design works better for most people with a single trapeze, so this option will probably be in the new class rules, or at least tolerated. For your information, there are TWO German 9er dealers, Steinlechner in Utting, Bavaria and Jess up North. Both cooperated to market the 59er and both cooperate now. Jess has the 505. I spoke to him (Holger) 2 or 3 weeks ago to try to find out how many 59ers there were in Germany and he said he hadn't sold one single boat. Steinlechner neither. Too bad. But that does not influence my choice for sailing pleasure which fits my challenge window. The RS800 is a different class of boat, and has different sailing qualities. I'm not knocking it. As for promoting the 59er, the more she's sailed, the greater the following. I don't have the money to promote her myself, but I do have the time to sail her One final point.Skiff sailors are rarer than other types of sailor and justifiably so. We should be promoting the idea of skiff sailing in general, not trying to trip one another up over, what are more-or-less subjectively driven motive issues. So as I tried to indicate before, we ought to bury the hatchet (Kriegsbeil begraben). Good luck up North and I'll try to get up as often as I can. Jim. ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 03 Dec 09 at 5:39pm
| So 59er facts please. What's the highest UK sail number? When were they last made? And what faults should a buyer look out for? |
Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 03 Dec 09 at 8:15pm
These questions are better answered by Dave Hall or Chris Turner at Ovington boats. I'm just an enthusiast and Iīd probably be accused of spreading disinformation later on. The link is www.ovingtonboats.com I think. Cheers! Jim. ------------- Pass the skiff, man! |