Sailing the wrong course
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6045
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 6:50pm
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Topic: Sailing the wrong course
Posted By: timeintheboat
Subject: Sailing the wrong course
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 10:27am
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If a boat fails to sail the right course (misses passing through start/finish line in this case) and this only noted by the RO, not the helm or other competitors what happens next? I don't think the RO can summarily DSQ the competitor or in handicap racing not record a lap time (?) Is it more that the RO has to have a word with the helm indicating what they did and inviting them to retire otherwise the only resolution could be a protest instigated by the RO? On whom is the onus of proof? ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Replies:
Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 10:50am
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I would have thought if you dont pass through the start finish line, your lap / finish time does not get counted. So if average lap handicap, you have done 2 laps to record one time. If you are fleet racing, you have to sail one more lap than every one else, than is assuming you spot the finish line next time round!! If I was RO I would not record your lap/lap time/ finish if you did not pass through the line, hence DNF probably. ------------- Merlin rocket 1137 OK 2049 Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 10:51am
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At our club if this happens they are put on the result sheet as DNF as they are deemed to have retired. The RO will not record a time on the results sheet. Surely it does not matter whether it is class or handicap racing? ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 11:07am
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Hmmm Somewhat playing devils advocate here but does that mean no toot on crossing the line after a multi lap race? When does the boat find out about the DNF? It could be only when the results come up - which could be a day or so or when they've packed up and gone home? Does that give them opportunity for redress ("you got the wrong boat", "no I didn't", "I came back")? ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: asterix
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 11:11am
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Something like this situation happened at the Formula 1 nationals this year. At the end of the last race on the first day a boat rounded the leeward mark in about 5th place and sailed towards the finish line, but did not cross it. Instead (presumably thinking it had finished) the boat turned away (downwind) just before the finish line and went back to its moorings. This was seen by the RO and witnessed by two assistants on the committee boat (I was one), which was stationed at the end of the finish line. The RO recorded the boat as DNF, but only after waiting for ~half an hour after all the other boats in the race had finished to see if the boat that had turned away would return to complete the course. The RO and team were essentially stuck out on the pond waiting, with no way of knowing the boat's intentions. Eventually, back on shore the crew of the DNF boat were not happy when they learnt of the DNF scoring applied, but what else could the RO do? There is no requirement to hoot when each boat finishes, and all of the other boats in the race managed to cross the line, |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 11:26am
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Interesting point asterix - how long should you wait? I guess until the time limit expires. The onus must be on the sailor to follow the correct course and that includes the finish. The RO is responsible for recording the finishing order of the boats and if they do not cross the finish line then they cannot record them. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 11:30am
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I thought the rule was thirty mins after the first boat is the time limit so if that boat had not crossed the line in that time he would be DNF ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: vscott
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 11:33am
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All depends on the Sailing Instructions! ------------- Mk IV Osprey 1314 Think Again 
Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 12:09pm
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A Race Committee may only determine a boat's score as other than their finishing place for boats that do not start or do not finish, retire after finish or take a scoring penalty after the finish. Only the protest committee may take other scoring actions that worsen a boats score (see rule A5) A boat that sails through the start/finish line on a lap of the course is neither starting nor finishing. If the course requires boat to sail through the line on a lap of the course and they fail to do so, Race Committee MUST, repeat MUST, protest under rule 28.1 in order to get boat disqualified. If the disqualify boat without a hearing then boat can request redress, which should be granted. By this time any subsequent Race Committee protest would almost certainly be too late. Unfortunately, once first boat finishes Race Committee must keep line open until time limit expires or all boats have finished or retired. 30 minutes may be too ong a time limit for one fleet races which do not last too long. Gordo ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: asterix
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 12:27pm
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Gordon what redress could a boat that didn't sail the course but also wasn't protested under 28.1 receive? |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 12:57pm
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Similar situation at an open meeting this year where half the fleet hadn't read the SI's and sailed the wrong course. All were given hooters at the 'finish' but recorded as DNF. Everyone was resigned to their fate and didn't query the results, but surely the RO team should not have given the 'finish' signals as we had only properly completed one lap and could have continued (although the time limit would have expired long before a 'proper' finish!). ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 1:23pm
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Asterix - the request for redress would be on the basis that Race Committee made an error by not following rule A5. ISAF case 80 gives guidance. The boat had been improperly scored DNF because the Race Committee did not have the right to do so as the incident did not involve starting or finishing. As there is no protest against the boat for not sailing the correct course she cannot be disqualified for doing so. Noah - the Race Committee acted improperly - they should have recorded finish times and protested the boats that they allege did not sail the proper course. It may well be that the SIs were at fault, and that boats did sail the course described in the SIs, even if this was not the course the Race Committee intended them to sail. So boats may well be entitled to redress. As it is if a boat had requested redress she and all the other DNF boats would have been granted redress and reinstated in their finishing positions. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 1:29pm
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We sail average lap races. We count the boats thru the finish line every lap. Once the shorten course goes up, all boats from then on get a finish hooter (unless 20 finish together!) and a time and the number of laps sailed. SO, at the finish, a boat that has missed out the "thru the line" on a previous lap gets the wrong number of laps counted (e.g. 2 laps, not 3). So on average, they receive a lower position. Not DSQ, not DNF. They finished, but have done fewer laps. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 2:03pm
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Surely not going through the line, if it is in the instructions to do so, is the same as missing a mark? If someone has sailed the wrong course and agree they have, they should retire. If they say they sailed the correct course, then they need to be protested by whoever it is says they sailed the wrong couse, whether it is a competitor or the race officer. I confess it doesn't happen that way at our club. Generally if outside of the line you'll get shouted at loudly by someone in the box, and come back and do it right. This is probebly against the rules, too, in some way. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 2:25pm
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One could claim that the boat was receiving outside help! See rule 41 Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 6:28pm
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Sounds like outside help to me. Probably acceptable in a friendly club race. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 15 Oct 09 at 7:48pm
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Thanks Gordon for illuminating this topic. I have to say in club racing as RO I have been guilty of acting as judge and jury and putting someone as DNF because they missed going through the line (class fleet). I have to say I'm still not clear what we do on average lap racing. I presume I can only record the times when they go through the line and they end up doing at least one less lap than the rest and one of laps is a very long one! This may sound a bit pedantic when applied to club racing but club ROs can act as open ROs and some helms going to opens I'm sure think that the RO has the power to chuck them out for going the wrong way. Certainly on smaller ponds with a plethora of malteser sized marks it can be too easy to lose ones way - so I think this is a not an uncommon occurrence. ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 12:33am
41(d) surely... |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 9:13am
I'm sure that if you missed a 'gate' on an earlier lap then you wouldn't get a lap time until you came round again (therefore effectively losing a lap) and adversly affecting your average lap time. This is different to failing to cross the 'finish' line after the shorten course signal has been given. without a final 'finish' time it wouldn't be possible to work out an average lap time result which would be anywhere near fair. |
Posted By: silverwood
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 10:15am
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It seems quite simple. If a boat does not cross the start finish line, the Race Officer cannot legimately record either a lap time or finish time. Ergo,either the boat gets an overall lap score one lap down on what it would have been had they crossed the line, or a DNF because they simply did not finish by crossing the line. I cannot see how any protest by the competitor can possibly be upheld, unless the boat insists they did cross the line and the boat has sufficient witnesses of sufficient calibre to convince a protest jury it was the RO's mistake not theirs. Waiting half an hour is another issue...... especially if back to back races are being run. A query from the safety boat to the competiter along the lines of "Have you retired?" may help resolve the issue, but presumably only after the last boat has finished. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 3:35pm
I assumed this would be the rule, but as you say, in a club race, especially for the back of the fleet who are more likely to get it wrong, Maybe!) I can't see anyone minding. Does the RYA arbitration scheme cover missing things like this? I'm thinking that taking someone aside and explaining what happened and why they won't get a result is a lot less heavy handed than protesting, and gets round the RO acting as God in handing out a DNF. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 4:33pm
But surely 41(d) applies: unsolicted help from a disinterested party is not prohibited. Obviously an RC doesn't want to spit out the help too much, and needs to make *very* sure that they treat everyone exactly the same, but its not actually prohibited that I can see. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 5:34pm
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RYA 1998/1 states "when the race committee boat, gives all boats advice that does not favour any particular no boat breaks rule 41 and no boat is entitled to redress". However in the case of a boat missing the start/finish gate on a lap being warned by the race committee, the race committee gives advice to one particular boat that favours that boat and no other. Imagine if, as a result of the race committees warning, that boat beat you in the race. Would you not feel entitled to redress? Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Oct 09 at 5:58pm
I'm not sure I'd get it though... Especially in a club racing situation. The question is whether its an improper action. Provided the other boat got the advice after it has passed the mark and has to go back I'd have trouble saying it was. Its common enough in club racing to yell out if a fellow competitor has missed a mark, but naturally one normally waits until they have got a reasonable distance along the next leg before telling them. The art of course is to tell them late enough that you retain a nice advantage, but early enough that they will continue racing, not retire [grin]*. If in a club racing situation the RC puts in a similar wait then no big deal. I note that the RYA guidance note you quote is silent on that: it states that saying they are going to go wrong is an improper action, but makes no comment on telling them they have gone wrong so that they have to go back... *now I think about it there's a subtlety there. Should the series be using a high points system that gives more points the more finishers there are then another competitor would not be a disinterested party in that case... I'm not sure such a system is often used though. |