Winward mark rounding
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5889
Printed Date: 24 Jun 25 at 7:56pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Winward mark rounding
Posted By: Merlinboy
Subject: Winward mark rounding
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 11:23am
| I witnessed an interesting incident this weekend whilst sailing our long distance race on the river. A boat was rounding the mark (starboard rounding) his boat was on port but his bow was just starting to round the mark. A Solo dinghy comes flying in shouting starboardwhich makes the boat rounding the mark crash tack off. From my viwe it seemed the solo had no rights as the one boat had already stated rounding the solo had overstood the mark and hadnt given the rounding boat any time whatsoever. I thought that if the Boat bad no overlap in the zone and then tacked and didnt give the other boat room they must give fair room at the mark. Is this the case? |
Replies:
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 12:23pm
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Hi, It's not clear:- Overlap and mark room only apply with Rule 18. If both boats are on opposite tacks where one needs to tack then it's not covered by rule 18 - it's a simple port/starboard situation (rule 10). The only exceptions here are if the right or way boat changed course after the other boat was keeping clear. Rules 15 & 16 acquiring right of way and changing course) Colin (Solo 3400 - not prejudiced!) |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 1:38pm
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What i'm asking i suppose is when does the boat rounding the mark have to give room, there was no overlap once entering the zone, there was very little warning in asking for room (I know you dont actually need to hale) the boat rounding the mark had started its rounding when the starboard boat yelled starboard, meaning the other boat had to crash tack. I thought the tacking boat had no rights? ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 2:24pm
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I would say in the particular case unless the Solo was fetching in and the port boat would have kept clear without the starboard boat changing course then it is a simple port starboard situation. It does sound like the port boat was not keeping a proper look out to me though to be caught like that. I am almost paranoid if I approach a Starboard WW mark rounding on port. You are of course allowed to slow down and make the starboard boat sail past you prior to tacking though which can be a useful weapon in fleet races..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 2:31pm
| I don't fully understand the situation... A diagram might help... If the boat were on opposite tacks approaching the mark then presumably they had been overlapped for some considerable time, and in any case rule 18 doesn't apply: its simple port/starboard as Colin says. But then you talk about tacking... Had starboard only just tacked onto starboard, or do you mean that they were going to need to tack onto starboard to round? |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 2:37pm
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I should point out he wasn't heading to the mark on port you had to tack onto port to round the mark. Remember we are talking about a VERY narrow river here. It was a long and a short tack beat so you were almost fetching to the mark. I'm not sure it was a case of the port boat not keeping a look out as it didn't look like the solo was any where near and the other boat had already started bearing off round the mark. The solo had over stood the mark and bore off to get round and sneaked up on the other boats transom. Then hailed Starboard. When i was asked for my opinion i thought it looked like the Solo had no rights as he had at no point until rounding had any rights and didn't give enough time or warning to the other boat. Am i completely wrong? ------------- |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 2:51pm
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Sorry Jim i did a really poor attempt at a MS paint drawing to explain it but unfortunatley it wont let me upload a picture in the Racing rules thread! ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 3:16pm
I'm beginning to suspect so... If he was on Starboard why should he not have rights? |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 3:45pm
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because the other boat was on starboard until he started to round the mark. (The other boat was a snipe by the way) So the Snipe was sailing a starboard course and had to tack round the boy. The solo had over stood the mark and was bearing off at some speed as the snipe was about 3/4 of the way round the mark. The solo would itself have to gybe/tack round the mark and therefore would have to sail on port for a small amount of time until it had finished its maneuver. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 4:08pm
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OK, so both boats approached the mark on starboard, and needed to tack round the mark, and they were not overlapped at the zone. Snipe (clear ahead at the zone) tacked (presumably rather slowly) and was caught either mid tacking or on port by Solo.
My vote is that its a Case 15 situation... Rule 13 applies and you can't tack unless you can keep clear of the boat behind while tacking.
|
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 4:44pm
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So the snipe is in the wrong in this instance. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 4:59pm
Well I'm no kind of rules guru, but I believe so. There are quite a few folks on the forum who are sounder on rules than I am... |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 5:43pm
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Agree here. The boat TACKING has to keep clear once they pass head to (and so are on port). (subject to usual luffing restrictions when ON stbd). The trick is to pass head to after you are far enough up wind that the chasing boat cannot hit you.. I set up a picture; but cannot upload it. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 6:04pm
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There is no "zone" here. However, (RRS18) does not apply.... ( (b) while the boats are on opposite tacks.....on a beat to windwardIf you are rounding a windward mark to starboard you are completely at the mercy of boats behind who are on or beyond the starboard tack layline. It's a perfect overtaking opportunity, which is why team racing events normally round marks to starboard and fleet racing events don't. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 01 Sep 09 at 9:27pm
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Here is how you deal with the problem replaced image bu oploading to another part of the Y+Y forum and then loading picture here!!
Green arries first and SLOWLY heads up (assuming nothing above) and at some point they should scoot enough to windward to make them "safe" and then tack.
Diagram is not 100% accurate as if red followed green you would not see the start if the green "track". ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 9:26am
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We really do need a diagram. Use Paint but make sure you save it as a .jpg file and remember where. Then upload it.
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Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 9:35am
| The image upload button is missing on this particular thread - anybody pinched it? It's normally the last one on the right in the top row. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 9:36am
I Assume that you are talking to Merlinboy regarding the need for a diagram? From the description, I think mine above covers what you "should" do. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 9:38am
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For some reason Mark set this forum up slightly differently! ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 1:19pm
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Unfortunately I don't think the rest of us can see it. I can't anyway. |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 3:14pm
No I can't see your diagram either.........
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 3:32pm
Better now? ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
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Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 5:35pm
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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 5:40pm
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Yes thanks and that's an interesting tactic I haven't previously come across.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Sep 09 at 6:44pm
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When a boat enters the zone clear ahead on starboard at a mark to be left to starboard then she is entitled to mark room from any boat that is clear astern on the same tack, or overlapped on the outside. However, if the boat is clear ahead mark room does not include room to tack. As soon as she passes beyond head to wind rule 13 applies and she must keep clear. She is effectively pinned on starboard and cannot tack to round the mark. On the other hand if a boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark room, mark room does include room to tack. So the standard team/match racing tactic is to slow as soon as first boat enters zone if she has a boat following clear astern, in the hope that the following boat ha s to dip to avoid contact. In which case leading boat has room to tack. In team racing following boat may well slow as well, to allow team mates to catch up. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 14 Sep 09 at 1:41pm
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right, should be easier with the diagram and info now- first, a boat which is clear ahead (most likely here) on the same tack or has inside overlap to a boat on the same tack has right to mark room "However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room." so if the Solo was on a higher lane (when they were both on stb) then he can pin the guy in the Snipe out, even after the zone is entered, ....... .....whereas if he is either behind or to leeward at the time of the 3 boat zone entered by Mr Snipe then he had no rights to do this another bit of an interesting case actually |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 14 Sep 09 at 6:53pm
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It's not really changed from the old rules (1980's), The tactics are as described - or:- IF the Snipe was on port and close to the river bank, then it hails "Water" if it can't tack without hiting the Solo (may need to slow a bit...). The Solo must either tack - or hail "you tack". The Snipe tacks, fetches the mark, and the Solo now only has the inside overlap for rights.
Really it's down to the Race Committee to be careful in organising the course to reduce these problems.
|
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 14 Sep 09 at 7:21pm
Colin, you mean "room to tack". "Water" was the old rules. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 14 Sep 09 at 8:44pm
This has nothing to do with rule 19- it is a narrow river but the case described it is just about rule 18 and the new definition for Mark Room In the diagram, given "red" is the solo then he had no right to call starboard as the Snipe is clear ahead, to windward and overlapped inside before the three legnth zone. Is the diagram what happened? If the solo was pointing at the mark and the Snipe was to leeward then he can call. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 14 Sep 09 at 8:59pm
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Sorry to be pedantic but Room to Tack at an Obstruction is now rule 20, because the old rule 18 at marks and obstructions is now split into rule 18 "Mark Room" and rule 19 "Room to Pass an Obstruction" I agree that this case is a rule 18 case Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 18 Sep 09 at 10:04am
both rule 19 and 20 if there was any hailing to be done, but as this was a misread reply we can ignore it! |