Has anyone heard any news on the ISAF RRS 40.2 regarding the quick release capability of harnesses, due to come in on the 1st Jan 2006?

As far as I can tell, ISAF said they wont certify or specify a particular model, so is there any criteria that can be applied to current harness designs to determine before the rule becomes law whether the one I have is legal?

Unusually, I haven't noticed the kit manufacturers slapping stickers on new designs saying "ISAF compliant" or anything similar, so is it possible that nobody knows what the rule means?

Or am I just missing the point and just happen not to have seen the particular harness involving a five number security tumbler, Houdini chains and blindfold, which could perhaps be seen as 'slow release'?  Where is the cut off point and who's counting the seconds?

I know some of the RRS can be a bit fuzzy, but stating a rule comes in on a date and then not defining it at all seems a bit too muddled.  I promise I'm not losing any sleep over this, still plenty of time to work it out but it would be nice to know what ISAF were thinking...

(PS: tried looking at the minutes on ISAF website, but it's down)

Thanks guys, am having difficulty loading the ISAF page: am I doing something wrong or is their server down?

Had a scary moment once when the conditions got a bit nasty and we where caught upside down with my crew clipped onto the shroud.

Luckily he was wearing a Magic Marine harness with lovely clips on so it was easy enough to just pop him free.

I don't think a knife would have been as quick

The RYA "policy" or "advice" on entrapment is to right the boat as soon as possible. If you approach a capsized boat then they say 2 people should be able to right any boat in about 20 seconds.

They say this is quicker and safer than trying to cut someone out. You have got to find the missing person first.

Remember if you are sailing past a capsized boat you are the rescue boat until the real one arrives, so if you cannot see the crew are safe you must stop and help. 

yeah I know that I was jsut saying what my coach said. I think that some how he had got stuck so that wasnt easy. I dont know.

Contender443 that only works at places where the mast wont hit the bottom.

Best bet is probably keep the knife strapped to the leg but have a quick release clip on harness too, so that should cover us in both ways but I think I'll be reaching for the knife before the clip.

As for the RYA advice on 2 people should be able to right any boat in 20 seconds, I don't know how they work that one out especially with the boats that fatal entrapments are most likely to occur, cats and skiffs. I'd love to see the technique applied to an inverted 5-tonner, without anyone trapped underneath   

I think you have got to try and right the boat first - how else do you know where the person who is trapped actually is. It has got to be worth a try. Also if you dive underwater to try and find them then you also run the risk of getting trapped yourself.

I assume the knife to be carried by the person who is trapped who should also at the same time be trying to release themselves. Remember the hook is only one small part that could get trapped. Entrapment also includes anything round your foot, wrist, neck etc. There are plenty of places to get caught.

Yes I agree some boats may take longer to right - especially cats. Also masts do get stuck in the bottom. Shallow water can prevent the boat from fully inverting.

The RYA also point out that the statistical liklihood of an entrapment is minimal.

The quick release harnesses in theory seem a great idea until you realise that a replacement hook costs about £50.  Imagine you release yourself from the wire, where does the hook go.........the bottom.  How many times in a season will you feel the need to quickly unhook?

This could mean shelling out £100 a year for replacement hooks for an £80 harness!  Doesn't add up to me.

This problem could be magnified hugely at a sailing schools where students are more likely to panic and lose the hooks over the side.  The sums just don't make it worthwhile.

You're right lozza, conspiracy time.

And trying to right certain boats to rectify the problem won't work because most of the big masted boats like 49ers, 5000s, etc definately need 2 people to right them from full inversion and even in that time, the person trapped would have most likely drowned. The problem is you sail with 2 people onboard, one gets trapped and your down to one to right the boat until a rescue boat comes along, which isn't going to happen instantly. Then theres time to right the boat if the rescue boat comes. Everytime I'd go under with the knife to get the crew out and if I was trapped, I'd be cutting myself free or my crew would be down to get me. Its a rule within the 18s that they have to have knife mounted at the back of the boat so that if this scenario occurs, the crew of the boat can rescue the trapped member. The fact they are also not wearing bouancy aids also means its easier to move under the water and being three up, there is always two other members to help the distressed party. I don't think the no bouancy aid idea should be applied to double-handers because there is just one person to deal with an incident if a crew member is in distress.

My only experience of a trapped crew was as follows. The boat capsized and the crew had his leg tangled in the halyards which were loose in the bottom of the boat. The boat was on its side and he couldnt get free. The crew dissapeared under the water still trapped. The helm leapt onto the centreboard and pulled the boat up enough so the crew could breathe. Luckily we were in a rescue boat and saw it happen. We went along side so that two of us could hold onto the centreboard and help the helm. The crew was remarkably calm and didnt panic. The three of us were unable to right the boat with the crew still tangled in the boat. Two of us were able to hold it so that the helm could swim round and cut the crew free. 

Conclusion - a knife is a great idea, make sure it has an elastic loop (bungee) so you dont loose it. Felco wire cutters in Rescue boats are also a good idea.

Did you spot the hidden message?.

Don't panic: it never helps.  I remember when I was doing some kayak training, one of the exercises was to capsize and swim up into your canoe to get used to being there.

Who wants to point out the pros and cons of doing the same to novice sailors so that in the event they find themselves under a boat 'by accident' they have a vague idea what's going on?

I know by itself it wont untangle unfortunates, but it will make life easier for everyone and increase their chances if they are not 'stressing'

I think these examples show the diversity of entrapments - you must choose whatever is best in the situation you are in.

If you can right the boat and free the person quickly then do it. The second person should come from the rescue boat or any other  passing by.

The point is to do something quickly and have at least a knife available.

Also one other point from this is someone mentions being tangled in halyards - look around your boat and see what ropes you can tidy away and prevent from getting tangled in. Are your ropes too long, not tidied away or in the wrong place?

The only time i've been around when someone was trapped was a very windy 5o5 winter series at Grafham years ago.  We were out having a ball in my Hurricane when we noticed the OOD boat from the 5o5 drop (and I mean drop chain, rope and all) the anchor and belt off to assist a 5o5 that had someone caught underneath.  All I know is that BOLT cutters were used (carried on all GWSC rescue boats IIRC) to remove the rig of the upturned 5o5 to get someone out.

I think the it went something like this :

1, 5o5 over, rescue cover notice that crew has not appeared and so stand by to assist

2, Helm signals that there is a problem (i.e. crew not underneath sorting out stuff)

3, rescue boat come in to assist and decide they need extra help

4, 2nd boat (OOD launch) arrived to assist and bloke is recovered sans 5o5 rig.

This was a long time ago so I cannot be certain of the facts, just that something along the lines of above happened - A quick release harness would not have helped i believe in this case.

I totally believe that this whole "quick release" harness was a knee jerk reaction to the Toornado Crew who died when he got caught under the tramp - first person I have knowledge of this happening to - IIRC the reason he died was that they (helm / rescue crew) could not cut the tramp (no knife I assume).  I believe the solution is to carry bolt cutters or a knife attached to the boat for this.  I am planning to in the future.

can anyone actually think of a case where the harness has trapped someone?

i know i am not going to be using a quick realise even when the rule comes in and this is the general view i have heard. what good is a rule when people ignore it because it is pointless!

Yeah I know Senoir instructors that have been caught by the harness and had to be air lifts to hospital.

Though I do know more people that have been caught in non trapeezing boats. (me included)

Hi everyone,

Wasn't there two cases, a couple of years ago, when people died. From memory I think that one was a male Tornado sailor in the Majorca Regatta and a female 4000 sailor at Queen Mary S.C. As far as I am aware, they were trapped by their harnesses and these two cases, plus others no doubt, were the reasons for an investigation into the use of harnesses and the changing of the racing rules.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

The only time i have been trapped was because of a rope around my leg and had nothing to do with a harness. However, even though i carry a knife the first time you are trapped it can be enough of a shock to make you forget you have the knife.

Another consideration for improving harness design is to reduce the number of straps as i find these tend to get caught more times than the hook does.

Anyone else find this to be the case?

I've had a serious incident with a harness buckle getting snagged on a control line.  The hook is no problem since it is instinctive to clear that.  I now use a harness which has only one buckle.  As for bouancy, I do have a problem with wearing the harness over the bouancy aid - the straps slip off my shoulders - so I wear it under the bouancy but that means there is no way I'm going to be able to get it off if I'm stuck. 

I find the modern bouancy aids a pain.  They slip up and get in the way when you're in the water and they make it much harder to get up onto the centreboard.  I have a feeling that the recommendations were devised by people who sail boats which hardly ever capsise.  50 Newtons is too much bouancy for a total emersion sport and the way I sail a Laser 4000 I have to treat it as total emersion!   I'd like a bouancy aid that provided about an inch thick layer on my back only, it could go down below my kidneys and would be OK beneath my harness.  It would probaly have less bouancy than 50N but I'd be so much more agile in the water it would be safer.  I speak from experience.

A buoyancy aid like that could cause you some difficulty!

if the foam was only on your back then when you were trying to swim back to your boat after capsize / falling out, it wouldn't be in the water and would weigh you down, not help keep you up.  Also, rescue crews' like having something to grab on to and I reckon a buoyancy aid would be easier than a harness to lift someone out.

If your new harness had a quick release hook, the buoyancy aid shouldn't interfere: maybe we should get onto a design for a harness with integral buoyancy, all-in-one?

Danny, a quick release hook is no good - its not the hook that gets caught and if it is, its instinctive to clear it - its the buckles that get snagged. 

As for the bouyancy aid, the modern ones are only half in the water since they are so high on the body and they also tend to slide up.  Swimming, how much are you going to do when trying to right a boat?  No you need a bouyancy which is lower on the body and doesn't slide up and it must also not be on the chest so that it doesn't interfere with climbing up onto the cetreboard or over the gunwhale.  The only place I can think of is on one's back.

You need to know what to do with wire cutters though. If you cut away a rig on an inverted boat then it could be punched through the hull and cause the whole lot to sink.

You would also cause more loose itemns in the water to get trapped round the person in the water or round a safety boat propellor.

What if the rig sinks then taking the trapped person to the bottom with it.

Best thing I think is to try and right the boat ASAP.

Usually cutting the rig away is when you have run out of other options.

We had to cut a rig out of an RS800 last season. The crew were very cold and tired having been in the water for over twenty minutes. We had three rescue boats in attendance all with motors off. We got the boat on its side and agreed how we were going to remove the rig. When we came to actually cut the rig we put the crew in one of the rescue boats. After the rig was all sorted out we put the crew back in their boat and towed it in while the other brought the remains of the rig.

a cheaper alternative to carbon tiller extensions is to buy a carbon power carp handle which costs between £10 and £30. (thay even look the same)

power carp handles go to about 2meters, but you can get other carbon landing handles up to 9ft long, including telescopic handles

The ISAF Equipment Committee are meeting today & tomorrow (10/11 Apl) & 40.2 is on the agenda.

Presume minutes will appear on web site in the next few weeks

It will be intereseting to see the minutes from the meeting.  The current rule mentions nothing about a hook, quick release or otherwise, it only mentions a device.

But what about rule 49.1

Competitors shall use no device designed to position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn under the thighs.

Maybe I'm missing something, and no doubt I shall be corrected very shortly, but according to that rule we can't use trapeze harnesses anyway

can someone clarify this for me please.

Ooops, sorry,

Just read back through some previous threads and it seems that this has already been discussed.

Oh well back to the VAT.

The RYA site has published its report into entrapments, its concludes that there is no clear pattern in the cause of incidents.  Also it concludes that neither the experience of the sailor nor the equipment used suggested a single dominant factor in the incidents recorded.

Seems there should be more conclusive evidence before making such a big rule change on harnesses.

http://www.rya.org.uk/images/uploaded/93ce8ee5-f220-43a3-8749-bc7d260137d8/Entrapments_Paper.pdf - http://www.rya.org.uk/images/uploaded/93ce8ee5-f220-43a3-874 9-bc7d260137d8/Entrapments_Paper.pdf

RYA summary:

Pioneering research conducted by the RYA has shown that dinghy sailing is still a very safe sport with the statistical risk to a sailor of getting stuck under their boat following a capsize extremely small

Lack of research into dinghy entrapments and heightened public awareness prompted the RYA to initiate a research programme focusing on identifying trends in incident figures, common contributing factors and the most effective rescue techniques. The statistical risk appeared to be small, but there was no research on the subject to underpin this assumption. As well as setting up a mechanism for dinghy sailors to log incidents, the RYA looked into ways of preventing entrapments by examining boat design and by developing and testing the most effective rescue techniques.

Forty four incidents were logged during 2003 and 2004 via the RYA website. In addition, air gap tests were conducted under a range of boats, a range of rescue techniques tested and discussions took place with the major dinghy manufacturers. Key findings were;

• There are no clear patterns in the cause of incidents, which occurred in a wide range of conditions and boats.
• Neither the experience of the sailor nor the equipment used suggested a single dominant factor in the incidents recorded.
• The statistical risk to a dinghy sailor of becoming dangerously trapped is tiny, but sailors should be aware that these incidents can happen.
• Rescue can be difficult in the time available and staying calm contributes to the chance of escape.
• The most common cause of entrapment was 30% getting ropes tangled around the body or limbs, 30% was getting caught on other control lines and straps and 30% involved some part of the trapeze harness.
• The most effective rescue of a trapped sailor is to right the boat as rapidly as possible.
• The best prevention is good housekeeping aboard, maintaining elastic and being aware of the problem.

Due to the lack of previous data it is impossible to establish a trend or an indication as to whether entrapments are on the increase, but there is no specific reason to think that they are.

Well ISAF have just published the minutes from the equipment meeting.  At least they are aware that there is a problem with the rule.  Well done to the RYA for all their efforts.  It will be interesting to see what ISAF come up with.  Since it is now May, they should have an answer, but I for one will not be holding my breath waiting for it.

They have just published the minutes saying that they will give a decision by april, surely im missing something here.

But bravo to RYA for their work.

This is the relevant section from the mid-year meeting report..

"RRS 40.2 Quick Release Harness

RRS 40.2 Quick Release Harness is scheduled to take effect on 1 January 2006. However, concerns have been raised on the need to establish standards so that sailors know exactly what equipment fits within the rule and a three-pronged approach has been taken:That

1. ISAF proceed as quickly as possible to obtain an international standard for trapeze and hiking harnesses
2. That ISAF undertake a programme to alert sailors to the dangers of entrapment by harnesses and ways to reduce the risk of entrapment.
3. That the http://www.sailing.org/bio.asp?ID=http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?MenuID=tu/wGBt54yNTiJmRt1H3WyGOCaYJSTLFGJK?m?LMhrEinSv?wdfiqdud7Txys/Yk838 - Equipment Committee and the http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?ID=j1,FhtBA~&MenuID=j,qwGBt54yNTiJmRt1H3WyGOCaYJSTLFGJK?m?LMhrEinS - Racing Rules Committee review the current wording of RRS 40.2 and consider making a submission to modify or rescind that rule or defer its effective date."

can we still were the normal hooks if we are just trainning or does the rule apliy to all trapezing?

well thats common sense isnt it! dont you hate health and safety!

Come on, that's never going to happen. That's like saying people would sue the Department of Transport (or it's equivelent) if they crash their car.

In Dinghy racing it's always been the sailors responsibility wether to race or not and what kit to use. If we keep it that way then everyone understands who is responsible but as soon as you bring in a rule like this you muddy the waters.

The more responsibilty you take away from people the less they are willing to except.

I'm changing to a quick release hook as soon as possible, caught my hook on a shroud during a rightining and straight back over manouevere. Reacted quickly but if I hadn't........ I don't really want to think about it Just had me thinking that's one time it would have saved me if the situation went any further. Better to be safe than sorry in my opinion.

And that's your choice.

You have had an experience where a QR hook would make you feel safer but I have never seen or heard of anyone I know who has been endagered by a harness. I have, however seen and heard of lots of instances where a sailor has been injured/hospitalised because of a knock to the head by a boom (I do sail a Contender remember), does that mean that every sailor should wear crash helmets?

Where would it end? In a lot of money being spent, a lot of freedom being lost and the sport I love being regulated like F1... yawn.

Just had the experience and thought it could happen again quite easily just due to the way I always go forward on the boat after righting. It wasn't a freak thing and that's what had me thinking. Just a little bit more money for being a bit safer plus it's not going to affect the way I sail. And if I had been not so lucky,it would have been very serious, the weight of the whole boat acting downwards on me with my hook firmly locked into the shroud and my bouancy forcing me back upwards to that force. I don't like to think of the consequences.......

I don't want to gate crash your conversation, but have you had a close look at those QR hooks? Contender443 bought a new harness at the Dinghy Show and received his brand new spreader bar, complete with safety hook, last week. (He would tell you himself, but he's working hard... bless...)

Of course, the first thing we did was to take the whole thing apart, to see how it worked. It took him 5 or 6 goes to release the hook. It's not easy ! I imagine when your life's in danger, you're likely to pull much harder

However, you still need to keep a cool head to locate the bit of string that will pull the pin that will lose the hook that will release you  

Oh, and a tip: when you receive your new hook system, you might feel the unstoppable urge to give it a good tug .. Make sure you've got nowhere to go fast, 'cos putting it together again is.... fun, fun, fun!!!

I'm going for the Magic marine one because it has no plastic, seems the simplest and is the cheapest. I'd end up destroying something plastic.