Racing Rules: Tacking in a boats water

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Tacking in a boats water

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5730
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 6:46pm
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Topic: Tacking in a boats water

Posted By: jeffers
Subject: Tacking in a boats water
Date Posted: 20 Jul 09 at 1:30pm

Right then....for all those out there who like to digest these...

Picture this:

3 boats, all on port.

Boat 1 (WW) is to wndward of the other 2 boats but is clear astern of them both.

Boat 2 (MD) is the 'middle' boat of the 3 and is clear ahead of boat 1 but overlapped to leeward by boat 2 (LW)

Boat 3 (LW) is the leeward of the 3 boats and is clear ahead of boat 1 (but not by much) and overlapped on MD

Approaching the starboard layline. MD tacks on to startboard (no issues here, they are clear enough ahead so they do not impede WW by their actions). WW sails high then tries for a late duck just as LW decides to tack. As LW starts to head up to tack they allow WW to become overlapped to windward of them. WW then has nowhere to go, they are committed to the duck and can only tack in the gap (tiny) gap, there is not enough room for them to duck further and duck LW.

My question is did LW have the rights to tack (I am crap with diagrams but hopefully you can picture it).

For the record I was WW and I did do turns as I was not sure, it was not until after I had the though that perhaps LW should not have tacked where they did. He and I had a quick chat after but neither of us could decide who was right or who was wrong.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Replies:

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Jul 09 at 4:58pm

From the start:

MD changes course and gives WW room to keep clear (no issue)

MD passes head to wind and keeps clear of WW from that moment until she is on a close hauled course (no issue)

MD acqires right of way and gives WW room to keep clear (no issue).

WW on port ducks to keep of MD on starboard (no issue). At this point WW is keeping clear of LW (no issue).

LW changes course by luffing. As right of way boat she is obliged to give room to WW to keep clear. According to the evidence given WW cannot bear away further, neither does she have room to tack in a seamanlike manner.

According to the evidence given it looks like LW broke rule 16.1 by not giving WW room to keep clear and should take a penalty.

Two points -
1.LW may well provide contradictory evidence that WW did have room
2. There is no evidence that LW had passed heard to wind. if she had done so she is obliged to keep clear of WW

Rule 16 puts an obligation on a ROW boat to ensure that her change of course does not put a keep clear boat in a position that requires her to make unseamanlike manoeuvres to fulfill her obligation to keep clear.

Gordon

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Gordon

Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 20 Jul 09 at 5:09pm

If windward was ducking MD on starboard then MD is an obstruction and LW must give WW room if they are overlapped. So might there be a rule 19 (is it now) infringement as well as 16?

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Jul 09 at 5:34pm

Agreed, but as I understand it WW had room to duck until LW changed course. It is the ROW boat's cahange of course that creates WW's difficulty.

Gordon

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Gordon

Posted By: Jon Meadowcroft
Date Posted: 20 Jul 09 at 11:23pm

Tacking boat keeps clear

Boat acquiring right of way keeps clear

Lots of obligations on LW accordingly

Given that it sounds like you were ducking as LW tacked sounds like you maybe could have carried on?

Anyway without diagram impossible to say more but I would not want to be LW in the protest room with the facts as you portray them.

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Jul 09 at 11:35pm

Not sure that LW acquires a right of way. Initially LW was clear ahead (i.e. ROW) and then is leeward boat (the rule that gives her ROW changes but she is still ROW boat).

LW would only be subject to rule 13 if she had passed head to wind. However , Jeffers claims that LW was only heading up to tack. A boat luffing, but not having passed beyond head to wind, is not tacking (technically - is not subject to rule 13).

We come back to a ROW boat changing course - rule 16.1. When LW changed course did she give WW room (as in the definition) to keep clear?

Gordon

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Gordon

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 9:26am

What happened at the end of the scenarios was that LW tacked leaving WW a gap of aorund 1 boat length to tack in.

I managed this but there was some contact (hence why I did turns to cover my transom as it were).

To be honest I should not have got myself in the situation as it was (a poor tactical call trying to cover slower boats, I was in the 8.1 they were in standard Lasers).

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 10:33am

Originally posted by jeffers

What happened at the end of the scenarios was that LW tacked leaving WW a gap of aorund 1 boat length to tack in.

*If* LW's story agreed with yours or if there were other witnesses that agreed with your story I would reckon I would DSQ LW. Of course in practice everyone has a different view of what went on and the PC has to make their best guess as to what actually happened.

Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 11:16am

Related one then, happened a few weeks back. I was crew on boat A in this situation to make things clear where the viewpoint is

A is on Stbd. B on Port. If no action was taken, A would possibly clip B's wing at the stern, possibly with their own wing rather than the bow, but more likely would have passed (just) behind. B tacks onto stbd on A's track. Whilst they spin the boat round quickly and sheet in, in doing so they manage to stall the boat. A has to try and bear off very quickly, but can't possibly do it quickly enough. Contact. B claims to be in the right as they'd completed the tack and were "clear ahead". A contends they were not given reasonable oppertunity to keep clear.

NB: this isn't the only time this day they pull the same manouver with similar result (but with a different A each time).

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-_
Al

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 11:40am

Originally posted by alstorer

B claims to be in the right as they'd completed the tack and were "clear ahead". A contends they were not given reasonable oppertunity to keep clear.

Case 17 certainly means that they can stall the boat and still have right of way, but it seems to me that Rule 15 might well apply... This sounds like a situation that would be well worth a protest if B is a regular offender... It would be essential to sort out third party witnesses though.

Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 12:44pm

Originally posted by alstorer

A has to try and bear off very quickly, but can't possibly do it quickly enough.

If A has tried to respond immediately once B's tack is completed and can't then B is definitely in the wrong and therefore should be taking a penalty. Time to get the protest form out I think especially if they are making a habit of it. B would need to prove in the protest room that (1) they tacked far enough away from A and/or (2) A didn't respond immediately.

Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 1:07pm

Originally posted by JimC

Case 17 certainly means that they can stall the boat and still have right of way, but it seems to me that Rule 15 might well apply... This sounds like a situation that would be well worth a protest if B is a regular offender... It would be essential to sort out third party witnesses though.

They did also shout "where's your witness?". Somewhat unsporting, but we did, perhaps foolishly, let it slide at the time.

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-_
Al

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 1:16pm

Originally posted by alstorer

They did also shout "where's your witness?". Somewhat unsporting, but we did, perhaps foolishly, let it slide at the time.

If they do that regularly then they are asking for a Rule 2 protest against them. Some might say a bit extreme but it will make them think twice about pulling off a dodgy tack. A shout of 'where's your witness' might indicate some kind of guilt and would certainly make me lean towards boat A if the was any doubt.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 1:28pm

Originally posted by jeffers

If they do that regularly then they are asking for a Rule 2 protest against them.

Most definitely... Be interesting to hear their side of the story, but it sounds as if they are skating on extremely thin ice.

Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 21 Jul 09 at 1:54pm

Originally posted by alstorer

They did also shout "where's your witness?". Somewhat unsporting, but we did, perhaps foolishly, let it slide at the time.

take it to protest anyway - the onus is on them to prove they managed to complete their tack and you were late too respond - ok so it does depend on what's said in the room but the chances are that you may win even without a witness.