Racing Rules: Over the line

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Over the line

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5593
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 2:53am
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Topic: Over the line

Posted By: dics
Subject: Over the line
Date Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 4:06pm

OK the situation is this:

A very short beat. The start gun goes and someone is over. It is a large(ish) fleet and the guy who “thinks” he is over but unsure carry’s on sailing to the windward mark because he can not get clear of the pack to bear off or tack and restart. He then thinks he will sail past the mark where he will have room to turn around and then restart. So what happens to the poor old boat stuck to windward of him at the mark, was not over the line and wants to round the mark but is forced to sail past the mark due the boat beneath him?

Being unsure of what rule applied I just gave him a sharp hail and got him to crack off but not before sailing a number of boat lengths past the mark.

Why he did not round the mark and gybe back to the start line I do not know.

Replies:

Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 4:37pm

I'm struggling to picture this.

How short is this beat exactly? And I can't believe the
other guy couldn't find an opportunity to return to the
start at some point during the first beat.

Also, you must have overstood the w/ward mark fairly
horribly to get trapped to windward of someone.

Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 4:39pm

if i were him one possibilty to get back over the line as quickly as possible would be to slow the boat down and let the others overtake, racing isnt always about being the quickest. in your case i think that he technically had no rights so shouldnt of been able to sail you passed the mark intentionally or not. i maybe wrong.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 6:03pm

He is still bound by the RRS even if he was OCS as are you.

So depending on how the overlap was established I would argue that you were still windward boat and therefore should keep clear.

There may be a proper course argument in there somewhere but if the overlap was established by you coming from astern (which if he was OCS and the beat very short is a distinct possibility) then he could take you head to wind.

I am pretty sure (and I believe other will correct me if I am wrong) that in a situation like this you simply remove the mark (because is is a windward mark not a downwind mark and rule 18 does not apply).

If I had the time and inclination I would work it all out. He is a bit of a muppet for sailing the entire beat (even if it is short) before trying to bail out. Easiest method would be to slow down and take/make a gap.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 09 Jun 09 at 10:33am

Paul,

That is what I thought at the time, hence my sharp hail to him to get him to crack off because I do not believe there is anything I could do. I was windward so I had to keep clear. The beat was one of those horrible beats – very short, could lay it in one, everyone was overstanding because of an adverse tide and so on. He should had gone back at his earliest opportunity or made an opportunity. But that was not my issue.

Thanks

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 Jun 09 at 9:25am

Until OCS boat is actually sailing towards the pre-start side of the line to to start correctly she is not bound by rule 21.1. The normal rules apply. The boat to windward must keep clear.

At the mark the boats are on the same tack therefore rule 18 applies (Jeffers please note). Outside boat must give mark room, and because she is overlapped to windward must also keep clear.

However, if you can convince the Protest Committee that OCS boat was deliberately sailing on so as to gain an advantage in the race or series (sailing a a boat out of the race to win a series, for instance) then a rule 2 protest wouod be appropriate, from which the PC might wish to initiate a rule 69 hearing.

Gordon

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Gordon

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Jun 09 at 12:35pm

Originally posted by gordon

At the mark the boats are on the same tack therefore rule 18 applies (Jeffers please note). Outside boat must give mark room, and because she is overlapped to windward must also keep clear.

Cheers Gordon, I had a senior moment there!

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 12 Jun 09 at 9:26am

a boat that is over the line shall keep clear of a boat that is not, doesnt say if you this negates the windward boat rule, also doesnt say to return at earliest oportunity. so you could argue either way, a) that he had to return and keep clear and didnt, or b) he didnt have a choice but to sial the whole beat and you had to keep clear. i would say that fair sportsmanship would come into play perhaps

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Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 12 Jun 09 at 10:22am

"a boat that is over the line shall keep clear of a boat that is not"

That's not the way that rule 21.1 is written. It's a boat sailing towards the pre-start side of the line that has to keep clear. If you are an early starter and continue to race, then you have all the normal rights...

It does raise the question of what happens if the course is set to pass through the start line each lap...Once approaching this point, the early starter has no rights - at all!

Colin

Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 12 Jun 09 at 2:23pm

re-read, your quite right

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Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 12 Jun 09 at 4:22pm

Originally posted by ColPrice2002

It does raise the question of what happens if the course is set to pass through the start line each lap...Once approaching this point, the early starter has no rights - at all!

Colin

Not necessarily because they might be approaching to complete the first lap. A boat that has sailed a lap obviously is probably not intending to return to the start. Although that is intent rather than definition of starting. However, appendix L guidance on sailing instructions 11.4 limits the time frame you have to start in. If the sailing instructions have a sensible time limit then the onus is to return to the start promptly and this situation won't arise.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

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