Talk to me about Kicker
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Beginner questions
Forum Discription: Advice for those who are new to sailing
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5453
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 4:30pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Talk to me about Kicker
Posted By: ellistine
Subject: Talk to me about Kicker
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 1:34pm
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We just started racing our Vago in the last few weeks. At the moment we're still getting mullered by Laser 2000s (and Wayfairers at times) but we're progressing and picking up bits and pieces of technique along the way. I've never been too sure about what I'm supposed to do with the kicker. I've been putting it on upwind, taking it off downwind and usually forgetting it's even there on beam reaches. I can see what it does i.e bringing the top of the sail in to be more parallel with the boom, but I'm never too sure how much to put on and if I should be doing anything different in light and strong winds. Any tips? |
Replies:
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 2:12pm
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Is it actually a 'kicker' i.e. blocks and tackle under the boom to the lower
mast, or is it a GNAV a metal angled thing in a slider above the boom, I've been studying these things quite a lot lately and they do seem to work very differently. The theory is the 'kicker pulls down on the boom which tightens the leech to increase the power in the sail in the mid range which would indicate that you leave it on downwind, mabe take it off before a gybe, but it also can be used in extreme to flatten the sail by bending the mast, but it must be very difficult to generalise I've owned four different boats and they all react in subtle but different ways(I'm also quite new to fixed rigs coming from an un stayed sail background in windsurfing). My current ride relies heavily on the interaction between the GNAV and the lower shroud adjustment as to what happens when you apply it, since it's just as likely to bend the mast before having an effect on the boom. My routine, Light winds tension the lowers apply only moderate GNAV. Strong wind I slacken the lowers apply loads of GNAV and everything else falls in between those two extremes. I'm sure there will be much more experienced folk along later with better tips as to the whys and wherefores is there not a focus group on the web somewhere for Vago owners? ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 2:17pm
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Yes it is a GNAV. Haven't even touched the lowers since we got the boat. The handbook simply says they should be hand tight. ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 2:46pm
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Well I can't say I did either for quite some time until I realised the knaff
GNAV thing i had wasn't working very well and the lowers my boat came with were fixed length and not adjustable. But now I have jury rigged an adjustable system for them which tightens them up a bit when I need to, it all works fine. Have you watched what happens when you pull the various bits of rope in the boat park? Does the mast bend at the point the GNAV joins it or do the lowers prevent that (Which is what should happen). It's easier to see what your doing in the boat park rather than in all the anxe that's going on when you're on the water. Someone who knows the definitive answer will be along shortly, better listen to them than me, I'm still finding out my self but I've made some huge progress getting mine to do what I want of late so it's kind of on my mind and anyone else having problems has my entire sympathy, bloody things are a night mare. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 3:28pm
The aft part of the top batten should be roughly parallel with the boom, in just about any wind conditions. Obviously, this will take more of a pull on the kicker to achieve in strong winds than in light winds. That's basically all you're trying to achieve. It can be quite hard to get your "eye in" when sitting up to windward on the side of the boat, so every now and then, if you're not sure, lean into the boat and look up at the sail from under the boom to see how they're lined up. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 3:38pm
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The kicker controls twist in the mainsail.
You need to change it to account for the fact that the windspeed is zero on the water surface but reaches full wind speed as some distance above the surface. A good way to check this is to use the tell-tales on the trailing edge of the main. Aim to have the bottom ones streaming perfectly and the top one breaking some of the time. On downwind legs it is used to prevent the leech inverting at the top of the mast. If you ease it too much when running it will generate lift too windward, while the lower sail will generate lift to leeward, this contributes to a rocking and rolling sensation and makes gybing difficult. If you pull the kicker on sufficiently to stop this. On your Vago downwind with the kite up, you want to aim to get your leeches parallel ie. get the same shape on the mainsail leech as the jib and the kite. |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 4:30pm
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So does that mean that the top battens and the boom should be a little off parallel ie with a bit of twist?
I think I saw this the other day. The top batten was inverting. Our main does seem to want a bit of GNAV on all the time else the battens are a real bugger to pop. ------------- |
Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 6:44pm
No. If the aft-most part (say 6" for argument's sake) of the top batten is parallel with the boom, then the sail already has twist in it. Keeping the exit of the top batten being parallel with the boom is a good rule of thumb. If you can do this, you've got the deal 90% right. There are times when you'd want more twist or less twist but that's more advanced. The other 10%, if you like. |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 27 Apr 09 at 10:57pm
I had a look at this tonight. It looks like the mast, at the point where the GNAV attaches, moves forward so in effect it is bending the mast. I can see why this would be a good thing to depower the sail in a decent breeze but not so good in light winds. I'll have a look to see if I can tighten the lowers a bit. I reckon I also need to shorten the strop/horse a little. Boom doesn't seem to be particularly close to the center line with some decent GNAV on. Thanks all. ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 28 Apr 09 at 9:18am
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I expect the lower thingies will be attached by some crude devices which
involve lots of small holes then an annoying pin and circlip which you will immediately drop, lose for several days until having replaced it at no little expense since you will have had to buy another complete set and that new set will of course not now match the other set since it's built by another manufacturer, they of course have deliberately made their little holes and stupid pins different by sufficient micrometers to ensure you then need to go and purchase another matching set, having done that the sun will immediately glint on the original circlip. You now are the proud owner of two matching yet not compatible bits of stainless steel with holes punched in them that were originally conceived by Noah who, quite probably climbed a mountain wrote on a tablet and decreed to the world that all such plates should be built identical but didn't reckon on the idiosyncrasies of Ron, Stan and Jack Holt. However thankfully common sense has now prevailed and the keen mind of the windsurfing genius has worked out a way to ignore all that simply by attaching a strop with two rings across them both near to where they join the mast then by pulling down on this with another rope into a cleat via a pully if necessary they can be adjusted simultaneously without fiddling with the stupid circlip things, I know, you need a picture I'll get one posted some time soon. Anyway ignoring all that nonsense that we are gifted with by the arcane production of the modern (sic) sailing dinghy, they definitely need to work in concert with the GNAV, that much I have proved to myself beyond any doubt. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 28 Apr 09 at 9:59am
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This is a Vago don't forget. The Lowers are fixed at the bottom and tied to the mast with string! Might go and have a fiddle with it this evening. ------------- |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 12:26pm
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LMFAO ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 1:51pm
Last time *I* looked it wasn't. If you look carefully amongst the little packets at your local chandler, or on pages like those below, you may discover that this pins are available as spares. As for the dimensional differences - metric and imperial I'm afraid - simple as that. http://www.marineprepacks.com/rigging/detail.asp?line=ssclevis - http://www.marineprepacks.com/rigging/detail.asp?line=ssclev is http://www.ronstan.co.uk/marine5/range.asp?RnID=249 - http://www.ronstan.co.uk/marine5/range.asp?RnID=249 |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 2:06pm
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Or invest in some 'fast pins'. Granted, they are really quite expensive, but you can attach the ring to the shroud point with string and then you won't lose them. I use them on the main shrouds and uppers as it makes changing rig settings much less of a problem. 
------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 2:29pm
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Or buy Stamasters to find they are to long for the wire things that hold
the mast up. You should see my little toolbox thing that started out as a little needlepoint box but now needs a truck to haul it around with its redundant cleats, shackles pulley blocks, chain plates that don't fit those pin things in the pic above, not to mention the bits of rope. Dont you just love collecting them? Just in case you know - one day you'll need them. And it'll be the wrong size.  ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 3:37pm
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Bear in mind in all this that if you adopt half the above suggestions your boat will no longer be class legal (the Vago is subject to the usual, anal restrictions of the Laser one-design classes). I'd just tighten the string until the lowers 'just' go tight as your rig tension (jib halyard) is finally pulled on fully. Ease 10-15mm (if you can tie knots that accurately!) when very windy. GRF - Noah actually invented adjustable lowers as well, and dinghy sailors in places other than Hythe have been using them ever since. You should just have asked him at the time. Edited when I realised that the Vago doesn't even have pin adjusters for the lowers, just string at the mast - how bad can it get? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 4:04pm
Lashings have some significant advantages - lighter, cheaper and more adjustable. Since modern ultra fine ropes came out I use nothing else. It is good to have the lashing at the outboard end though: you can't get the tension on nearly so accurately if they are at the mast. |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 4:08pm
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Mmm. Quite. I might at least alter the string arrangement to an adjustable string arrangement. So you're also saying, loosen the lowers when windy. I can see how that might work, as Grumpf said, without lower tension the GNAV will bend the mast more than it pushes the boom down. The bent mast will depower the sail. ------------- |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 4:11pm
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Now there's a thought. Turn the lowers upside down. Put the shackle at the top and the 'string' at the bottom. ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 4:21pm
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But then it won't match the rigging diagram - watch those class rules! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 30 Apr 09 at 4:24pm
Fortunately (or unfortunately) the Vago class is more keen to promote the sailing and the racing of the boats than upholding the class rules to that sort of level - but I take your point. ------------- |