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wood or plastic

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Forum Name: Your thoughts for YachtsandYachting.com
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=526
Printed Date: 30 Jun 25 at 3:06am
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Topic: wood or plastic
Posted By: carshalton fc
Subject: wood or plastic
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 11:48am
what is faster a plastic boat or a wooden boat

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International 14 1503



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 12:14pm
It depends...

Solid fibreglass with sprayed on chopped strand mat is a far inferior construction material than plywood. However if the boat is heavy enough it probably doesn't matter that much. Few dinghies are that heavy though.

Foam sandwich with reasonably quality glass or better is superior to plywood if the materials are used correctly. However quite a few class rules make it very difficult to use the materials to best advantage, and for those classes wood will probably still be better.


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 12:32pm

Again it depends on the class - some classes seem to be faster in wood.

In the Contender the jury is out over whether the all wood Bonezzis are faster than the composite or all glass boats.

For looks the Bonezzi wins hands down - those of you at the dinghy show will know that.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 12:39pm

Originally posted by JimC

However quite a few class rules make it very difficult to use the materials to best advantage, and for those classes wood will probably still be better.

In Merlin Rockets plastic and wood are equally quick, which is precisely what the rules are intended to achieve. Wood for new designs (it is a development class after all), plastic to allow low-maintenance copies for those who want it.

I know less about Solos, but from what I've heard plastic and wood perform much the same there too.  



Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 1:28pm
In scorps plasic and wood compete on equal terms but wood stays competitive for far longer hence why most the fleet have wooden boats

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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 2:05pm
it does depend on the classes and the exact materials used. In cadets it is thought that wood is faster but it is not known why, tho some of the wooden and lastic boats have different designsfor example the boyancy tanks are in different places.


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:27pm

Some classes were designed to be made from plywood, for instance the Wayfarer and Scorpion.  The chances are that boats in that class made from wood will be faster.  Other boats are designed to be made from fibre glass and are difficult to make any other way ie Laser - notice the round bilges.  There are a few classes that were designed to be made were the laminations of wood are formed in a mould.  They look beautifull in wood but can be expensive and their shape makes it easy to also mould in fibre glass - there's probably not much difference in perfomance - just maintenance; Fireflys, Albacors and that beautiful Contender fall in this category.  Then there's a question of resin.  Epoxy is more expensive but better in many ways, and then there's the type of fibre, glass is cheap but not as strong as carbon, kevlar and others. 

So like everything in engineering its a compromise between price and performance.



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:33pm
arnt some cherubs made of wood?  i know they know make them from carbon tho.

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International 14 1503


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:33pm
I love the composire Fireballs they look lush although i sail them so i might be biast

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 7:12pm

the fireballs look nice but loads of ropes

 



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International 14 1503


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 7:13pm

Lol yeah just maybe.

I do liek the look of a well maintained wooden boat but they can be in such a pain in the a** to look after. i supose it does depend on what class you are considering as to if wood or plastic is faster.

and how much diference does it make, because if they are the same weight and design, shouldnt they realy be the same speed.



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 7:20pm
maybe the wood might give more resistance in the water?

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International 14 1503


Posted By: sailorguy
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 8:15pm
don't the foils make a difference too

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RS 500 (twin wire)
Laser 157607
Laser 85446
Pico 2136


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 8:21pm
well vasrnished wood is no different to gel coat through the water

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 8:23pm
ok thax phil!  yer the foils do make a difference but you could have the fiberglass ones tho.

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International 14 1503


Posted By: sailorguy
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 9:10pm
if you had a wood hull and fibreglass foils and you hit the shore, wouldn't the hull surrounding the daggerboard case split. personaly i would prefer to have to get a new dagger board than a new hull

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RS 500 (twin wire)
Laser 157607
Laser 85446
Pico 2136


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 08 Mar 05 at 12:59pm
yer but lioke phil said well varnished would is the same as gel coat. so maybe wooden foils would be no different.

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International 14 1503


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 08 Mar 05 at 1:31pm

For Mass production once you have the molds it is cheaper to make foils out of fiberglass with a foam core in two halfs and stick them together This can make quite a good blade but if done badly they can be terible and care has to be taken to keep the weight down.

For smaller production runs and better performance it is eisier to shape the core out of wood you can mix the types of wood to give different ammounts of flex in different areas of the foils. the blade can then be sheithed with glass or carbon for improved strength. You can make quite light foils this way.

If you want to go realy light then you need to use Carbon sheith over a foam or possably light wood such as balsa, although you usualy need a wooden peice in the center of the foil to stop the foam from crushing around the bottom of the stock. The carbon cloth also needs to be placed carefully to get the right ammount of flex

 

 



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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Mar 05 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by carshalton fc

arnt some cherubs made of wood?  i know they know make them from carbon tho.


The last wood Cherub I know of was built about 1996. Curiously it was built by the same guy who made the first foam Cherub in the UK* in 1970.

Foam sandwich is preferred by the majority because its a lot easier for an amateur builder to build a light strong foam sandwich boat than a ligfht strong wood one.

50kg (the Cherub hull weight) is a bit of a struggle for a wood boat, although I have a 1971ish boat that is still pretty much down to weight and quite usable. 50kg is quite easily attained with a foam/good quality glass boat, and carbon boats by experienced builders have come out nearer 40kg which means a fair bit of lead to find a home for.
A lot depends how much interior structure you put in though. A minimal interior is obviously light, but critical on materials, whereas if you have a bit more structure its always going t be heavier, but a lot easier to get it plenty stiff enough for the insane rig loads used.

As for why wood or plastic is faster, itr almost certainly comes down to stiffness. The two materials have significantly different properties so require to ba handled in different ways. There's both panel stiffness and bend resistance to consider - panel stiffness probably affects how it goes through waves, bend resistance is not only about rig tension, but also about how much the boat twists with the crew sitting out at the back of the boat, but the load the otherway coming from the daggerboard in the middle.

JimC

*first foam Cherub in the UK, not the world, the worlds forst foam sandwich Cherub was built in 1969 by Russ Bowler (now partner in Farr Yacht design). I think these were among the first foam sandwich boats built anywhere by anyone.


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 5:37am

Originally posted by JimC


50kg (the Cherub hull weight) is a bit of a struggle for a wood boat, although I have a 1971ish boat that is still pretty much down to weight and quite usable. 50kg is quite easily attained with a foam/good quality glass boat, and carbon boats by experienced builders have come out nearer 40kg which means a fair bit of lead to find a home for.

So ultimately it would appear that composite construction would be fastest as you can build a lighter, stiffer boat...and I am conveniently ignoring all the class specific issues with that generalisation!



Posted By: flat is fast
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 10:29am
wood is far better because when it gets wet you can always dry it out and when plastic boats start to delaminate wooden ones can be maintained with alot more ease

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no fear


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Blobby

So ultimately it would appear that composite construction would be fastest as you can build a lighter, stiffer boat...and I am conveniently ignoring all the class specific issues with that generalisation!

Yes, but don't forget the class specific issues are very very important!

Originally posted by flat is fast

wood is far better because when it gets wet you can always dry it out and when plastic boats start to delaminate wooden ones can be maintained with alot more ease

Obviously a man who's never had to deal with delaminating plywood, or thirty year old wodd boats where the aerolite has gone brittle and is letting go!

Wood is still a fine boatbuilding material, and if you are building a boat for the pleasure of working with the materials and seeing the finished object then I prefer it to epoxy/foam. I have a wood boat, a wood decked foam boat and an all foam boat, snd there's no doubt in my mind that the all foam boat is far less hassle to maintain as well as needing less work.

Nowadays I would almost always build only consider ply for a quick knock up/throwaway boat to try something out and even then there would be a lot of glass carbon/epoxy in it.


Posted By: sailorguy
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 9:20pm
don't composite boats only need looking after at the end of their lives, whereas a woodeen boat need to be looked after all its life

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RS 500 (twin wire)
Laser 157607
Laser 85446
Pico 2136


Posted By: flat is fast
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 11:01pm
i have completly restored a boat and it wasnt that hard. however it did take me 3 months but i was 16 at the time so i didnt think i did that bad! plus these days epoxy is far better than it used to be west and sp are just so much stronger. They dont use castermite much now because it goes brittle with age but sp and west altho expencive last longer and hold stronger.

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no fear


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 1:34pm

There is a big difference between the resin types used and the effect that they have on a boat life.

When the boat flexes both the resin and the fibers strech the problem with Polyester resin boats is that the resin is not quite as stretchy as the glass so as the boat flexes you get micro cracking of the resin. this is largely what makes a boat go soft with age.

Epoxy is much better as it can strech futher before failing plus it absorbs much less water than polyester resins and does not smell as bad when curing. Unfortunately it is more expensive.

 



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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right



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