Carbon top mast for Laser Radial
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=513
Printed Date: 16 Jul 25 at 7:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Carbon top mast for Laser Radial
Posted By: Guest
Subject: Carbon top mast for Laser Radial
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 6:34pm
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Anyone know what is going on, my wife sails a Radial but at 52kgs she is abit light in a breeze and I figure this will be good for her. Will it use the same sail (I hope so as she's just brought a new one)!!! Rick
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Replies:
Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 6:46pm
| What different properties does that carbon one have? |
Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 6:56pm
| a friend of mine sailed at travemunde and after four races he had to quit, because his carbon top broke. the sail was totally destroyed and of course the top too. don´t know if it was something about his style of sailing (don´t think so to be honest). but you can use the normal sail, as i know. |
Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 7:43pm
| Oh not too good. Though you do have breakages with the normal masts. |
Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 7:53pm
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Allowing expensive options like carbon uppers represents a move away from the laser's trademark one-design concept. The proposed carbon upper for the radial benifits: ------------- Jon Vortex 1169 http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club |
Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 8:06pm
| Good point but it would be a better mast for someone who is overpowered. will alow the top section to fall off slightly, but whether that is worth the costs....... |
Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 05 at 8:13pm
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personally i like the boat as it is, and don't think it needs anymore alterations, tho i do have the XD power packs, tho this made a big differece for me ------------- Jon Vortex 1169 http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club |
Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 04 Mar 05 at 4:59pm
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But will it work? Its no good having sloppy top section if the sail doesn't fit it properly. Downwind in a blow it could be a bit unpredictable. ------------- 
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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 04 Mar 05 at 5:42pm
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Also i thought that the point in having the 4.7 rig was that if you became over powered in a radial in a blow, you could switch over to the 4.7 rig ..............isnt this carbon top mast going to contradict what they were trying to get going? ------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: nathan
Date Posted: 04 Mar 05 at 8:09pm
| The idea was bought in around 2001. 4 masts were lent to RYA laser radial squad members I believe, and these were just used by these sailors... and the matter hasn't officially gone any further (that has been made public anyway). One of those got ran over by a car supposedly, so they should be 3... sounds like Jon Emmett has one. I think that they were made class legal in 2001 and you are allowed to use 'laser supplieded carbon top sections', however laser don't sell carbon top sections at the moment... |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 04 Mar 05 at 9:16pm
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Sorry I do not have a carbon top mast, just an old bent ALU one like everyone else! The last regatta I did had carbon sections allowed in the SIs but no one had one. The testing is currently being done in OZ and I am sailing in Weymouth in the snow like everyone else. Basically a carbon mast would last longer and give better gust responce. For the record I weight 66KGs and am 5 1/2 foot tall, therefore I think a Bender mast would probably help my boat speed in most conditions... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: pro wannabe
Date Posted: 05 Mar 05 at 7:37pm
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my mate has a corbon national12 every things always breaking and he cant get new parts! ------------- Your spinni aint as big as your mouth! |
Posted By: terraslazer
Date Posted: 05 Mar 05 at 9:22pm
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the new carbon spar is going to be better for the lighter people that strugle in the light winds. the section is ment to have a longer competative life than the alu ones. i pensonaly have mixed feelings about the section but will defanetly be buying one. ------------- Laser Radial For Sale For Details And Pictures See http://mylaserforsale.orbitaltec.net/ |
Posted By: sailorguy
Date Posted: 05 Mar 05 at 9:56pm
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i am 71/2 stone and sail a radial, and it would make a massive difference if i had ore righting momen in strong winds. i also have the power packs and tey have transformed my sailing particullay with the vang on the reach. ------------- RS 500 (twin wire) Laser 157607 Laser 85446 Pico 2136 |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 05 Mar 05 at 10:07pm
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wow- thats prett light for a radial, we figured 9- 91/2 stone was the best weight for a topper! ------------- |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 06 Mar 05 at 10:28am
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Gd gd im about 9 1/2 stone (bit under) yey !
Harry have you ever cpasised and got your feetstuck in the Toe Straps? ------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 06 Mar 05 at 4:37pm
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no! sounds like you have abizare accident to tell us about in most embarrasing moment thread...!?? ------------- |
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 3:03pm
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My gut feling is that a carbon mast on the radial is completely against what the class is supposed to be about, then again so is four and a half grand for a new boat! So what are we to do?! ------------- FLAT IS FAST! Shifts Happen |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 5:28pm
| 4 & 1/2 GRAND.....good grief... |
Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 5:46pm
| serioulsy? didnt know it was that much. |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:10pm
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Crikey moses ------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:16pm
| Think I'll buy my son a Splash/Flash instead.....better value for money. |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:18pm
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Yeah......although with laser comes the hige races and all the training from pro's etc
are Splash/Flash similar in speed to a laser?
------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:20pm
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Ok, well that was for a top of the line XD boat including trolley, trailer and covers, but even a 'classic' version is only 300 less, its silly money, for that money you can buy a one year old - almost anything else - which will have all the racing tweaks already. ------------- FLAT IS FAST! Shifts Happen |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 07 Mar 05 at 6:30pm
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yeah true lol you could get a good 29er for that ------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 08 Mar 05 at 3:52pm
These are the boats:
------------- Jon Vortex 1169 http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club |
Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 08 Mar 05 at 3:54pm
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Phil - the differnce between G-XD n the Classic is aboat £760 ------------- Jon Vortex 1169 http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club |
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 08 Mar 05 at 4:58pm
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sorry, misread, was looking at XD and race 05 by accident, the point is still a valid one though. ------------- FLAT IS FAST! Shifts Happen |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 1:38pm
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That is a lot of cash for the extra bits of string, and I thought that lasers were one designs! ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 3:55pm
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Yeah, many of the parts are specialist tho. As a result the manufactuer has a 'captive market' and can and does charge chatever they like. The worst bit is that laser moved most of their building to eastern europe to reduce costs and a new boat is still more, its a rip off, pure and simple ------------- FLAT IS FAST! Shifts Happen |
Posted By: cspareu
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 9:37am
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Hi, I have been involved in the development of Carbon Spars for the Laser Including the Radial, The site will have more information as time goes on www.cspar.eu I have personally sailed with the Standard carbon full rig and really really enjoyed it, there is a positive difference. We do have a Radial rig as well but at the moment the only three in the country are at our store. Im going to Hayling Island UK in February to present the Laser carbon Spars there, your'e welcome to come along. I will be loaning a Carbon Radial rig with the Hayling Island Junior Laser squad to get feedback, all feedback will be posted on our Blog. The spar dimensions are identical to the Aluminium spars so everything fits (to answer a previous post) Any questions ref Carbon for Laser please drop me a line. I know at present they're not class legal but surely they will be one day..  Best Mr C
------------- Mr. Carbon |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 9:50am
| Now that's a real sailing topic! I particularly like ".....but surely they will be one day". |
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 10:25am
| I have a suspicion this is only the start of carbon goodies from these guys ! |
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 1:10pm
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This link is interesting, http://csparnz.com/c-laser/" rel="nofollow - http://csparnz.com/c-laser/ what is also of interest is the table of sections, plenty to choose from! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 1:46pm
It may well be that a carbon spar will be legal for racing some day, although I doubt it will be before the various Laser builders and rights owners finish kicking each others ankles in the law courts, but we can be pretty certain that these ones never will be... And isn't the whole idea of Laser sailing that there isn't a positive difference between boats? |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 2:39pm
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Manna from heaven; Carbon spars for Lasers, EXCELLENT, I'd have them if I still had one. Gotta be better and cheaper than wrecking a sail every season or less if you are really trying with enough cunningham to bend a 2 inch scaffolding pole. Class legal, who cares, it's a beach boat that's been shoe horned into being a racing boat anyway. Transformed the Byte; ask Mr Tick. |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 3:42pm
I was getting to that......Why stop at carbon mast? If you are going to make it illegal then go the whole hog and give it a modern rig?
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Posted By: cspareu
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 5:09pm
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I fully appreciate that in a 'level playing field racing situation' any advantage over another boat in the same race because of 'advanced equipment' that increases speed (including Carbon spars) isn't right or fair. The very point of "fairness" leads me into an interesting fact. At C-Spar EU and C-Spar NZ we realised as developers of carbon spars that prior to becoming class legal there would be a keen interest from many sailors from the less competitive arena and we would never expect 'yet" to see our spars in any race. For the Laser racer we developed a "Race training" spar----- we decided to focus on a completely separate item and came up with with a composite top mast section, mainly to help reduce costly and untimely top section replacements. Our aim was to develop a top section that was the SAME weight and the SAME bend as the present class legal Aluminium top section. We tested 6 different 'class legal' Laser performance supplied Aluminium tops for both weight and bend and none were the same (in-fact the margin of difference was astounding) weight +/- max 12% and bend @ 12Kg on tip was +/- 22% This means that IMHO there have been Class Legal races where potentialy the wrong boat has won (i.e. on the grounds of an equipment advantage) not all competitors could possibly have benefited from say that +20% Top Mast bend when conditions were just right? At least with Carbon/Composite Spars the tolerances of difference during manufacture are +/- 1-2% on bend and on a very similar figure on weight, compared to aluminium that is obviously considerably higher. Class legal Aluminium offers a level playing field? from my work so far I think this unfortunately cannot be the case. ------------- Mr. Carbon |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 5:33pm
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Good Lord, those figures are amazing. I had heard this before (Olympians selecting masts) but never believed it, however I am inclined to believe this.
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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 8:50pm
Whatever you do don't start looking at critical hull measurements. You need to pick your hull very carefully as well as your spars. For the olympics and worlds the boats are supplied anyway though, so while it may be beneficial in getting you there, you'd better be able to make any old dog go fast if you want to win a title... That said, I measured 4 supplied boats for the worlds in 2011 and they had identical measurements. Not sure if they make sure the spars match as well though, less likely I'd think. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 9:01pm
*If* my understanding of the manufacturing problems of alloy masts is correct then a whole batch of spars made at the same time will be very close. My understanding is that the dies used to create the extruded section wear, so as they get older the wall thickness gradually increases until it goes out of spec, then they have to start again with a new set of dies. |
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 11 Jan 14 at 10:21pm
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Personally I think that it’s only a matter of time before carbon sits alongside aluminium. If a carbon boom is available for the Laser/Kirby torch, with such a one design class what’s to stop the manufacture and purchase of carbon spars in other classes? RS 100, 300, 600, 700, are already specified in carbon, RS
300 is going to get a carbon boom, Byte has gone carbon, in fact below is a
list of spars available in carbon.
Can anyone remind me of a new boat recently launched with aluminium spars? I am aware of several discussions where VERY traditional classes are considering “playing with carbon” to see how it goes. I know this puts them out of class but where they sail in
handicap fleets and are unlikely to travel, a more enjoyable sail seems to be
more of a priority. Sorry if this is heresy, I just think the idea is out there more than people realise. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 8:33am
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For three Classes that are in my awareness, Osprey, Phantom and Contender the option of a carbon rig seems to have done them no harm at all in terms of popularity. I think the general opinion for at least the Osprey is that a carbon rig is little faster in terms of outright speed in a straight line drag race. However it seems to offer a kinder and more pleasant sailing experience especially for lighter teams, of course this could or should ultimately result in a quicker time around the course. Is the cost of carbon vs aluminium determined by manufacturing costs or the market forces of supply & demand and desirability. |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 11:15am
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I did hear that China's need for financial growth, resulting in a rate of 10% was about to slow down as they service their domestic market. China has been sucking in raw materials keeping World commodity prices high. Could aluminium become cheaper making carbon an expensive option the way it used to be?
Carbon fibre is aesthetically pleasing to the contemporary eye, but will that last? Dishwashers used to be an expensive luxury item so you put in pride of place in the kitchen because you wanted it to be seen. Then they became commonplace and were covered up (integrated) but just showing the control panel, so people new. Eventually they were obscured completely with the controls in the door thickness, because everyone had a dishwasher no one cared. A friend of mine has a Phantom with a WHITE carbon mast. I await seeing a carbon mast finished in silver. Cost, availability and fashion must all play important parts but is it not easier to engineer different characteristics into carbon?
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Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 11:29am
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Sailing costs coming down !!! Now there is a truly radical concept, not sure that is going to happen even if Ali does flood back onto the market. I think you will find the thinking behind a white carbon mast is related to UV protection and heat absorption, though thinking about it silver would do that equally well.
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 12:05pm
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Painted masts do last longer. Clear coat, like the majority are, is a triumph of aesthetics over practicality.
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 12:39pm
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I believe the price of aluminium products is heavily tied to energy costs, so I don't see it becoming cheaper any time soon.
I first saw a silver painted carbon mast about ten years ago. Clear coating carbon masts isn't really a very sensible idea. I reckon that, whatever people may say about UV resistance in clear coatings, that its not that effective because the clear coat peels off after a few years and paint doesn't seem to, so I think that most likely means that enough UV is getting through to degrade the varnish/epoxy bond. |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 12:43pm
| Why do some team sportsmen put blobs of colour on various parts of their faces. Is there a purpose or is it just fashion? |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 12 Jan 14 at 2:11pm
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Fashionable zinc based sunscreen to prevent reflection on the eyes or the like. Mostly fashion otherwise you'll end up with a white stripe after it's washed off ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Jan 14 at 11:59am
Carbon is a great material, but clear coated carbon is hardly the latest thing in fashion. I have a 1992 motorbike with clear coated carbon mudguards. It was the latest thing 20 odd years ago. The price of an ali mast is not really about the commodity cost of the metal, that is about £1200 a tonne. So even an RS400 mast only has about £12 of ali in it. The commodity cost in carbon is below £200? in carbon tow and resin. The cost is in manufacture, and the key to that is quantity. |