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RRS 2009-2012

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4638
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 12:43am
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Topic: RRS 2009-2012
Posted By: ChickenTack
Subject: RRS 2009-2012
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 12:55pm
Hi

Apart from the two length zone changing to a three length zone

Does anyone know if there are going to be any other changes to the rules next year?


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Regards,

Will

Crews union: beause its hard to be humble when you know you're so great!



Replies:
Posted By: kevg
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 4:21pm

Take a look at the "Look to Windward" blog

http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com/2006/10/racing-rules-of-sailing-2009-2012.html - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com/2006/10/racing-rules-of-sailing -2009-2012.html  



Posted By: ChickenTack
Date Posted: 12 Sep 08 at 12:56am

Muchly thanks!



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Regards,

Will

Crews union: beause its hard to be humble when you know you're so great!


Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Date Posted: 13 Sep 08 at 9:56am

Has a final set of the rules been published yet?

Or even better a rules in practice book for 2009-2012 been published yet?



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Merlin rocket 1137
OK 2049
Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 13 Sep 08 at 1:18pm
I think the Willis book is due out soon.

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Sep 08 at 2:12pm
There are books out there our honorary sailing sec got a copy at the boat show. Roll on the next sailing ctte meeting to discuss them!



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 15 Sep 08 at 3:01pm
The ISAF has published the new rules on their web site:
Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012


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Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 15 Sep 08 at 8:48pm
Yep yep the new Willis book is now out. Funny usually the most common talk I do over the winter is tactics and strategy but this winter looks like it is going to be the "new" rules. Funny at a recent event a friend of mine was protested and the protest committee asked if the protester displayed his flag and whether he had mast abeam!

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 10:49am

Doesn't surprise me. The protest committee is usually not organised before an event, in the hope that it will be a "good event" with no protests!

Mind you judges often have only themselves to blame - too many are of the "I be around, phone me if there is a protest".

I believe judges should be more hands on. If I am asked to attend an event I usually ask to review the SIs, with a view to avoiding potential requests for redress. I try to be allocated a RIB so that at least I can see the conditions. I prefer, when at dinghy events, to judge rule 42 ont he water. I believe that the judge should attend the initial briefing and be available for competitors to answer rules queries.

When good relations can be established with the Race Officer the judge can have a real role in helping run the eent. A Race Officer works "forwards" - from setting the course to getting the competitors back home safely. However, the judge thinks backwards - from the potential protest or request for redress back to how to prevent the situationin the first place.

 

Gordon DAVIES (ISA NJ)

 



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Gordon


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Spyderman

The ISAF has published the new rules on their web site:
Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012


Got as far as fundemental rule 5 - anti-doping..could be amusing at some of the student events...


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 3:19pm
We had a interesting time at the last Laser Qualifier. We usually have a jury for rule 42 (yellow flag) but instead we had an umpire (with red and green flags)!

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

We had a interesting time at the last Laser Qualifier. We usually have a jury for rule 42 (yellow flag) but instead we had an umpire (with red and green flags)!


Jon, can you get me in touch with the umpire/judge at that event? I'm interested in the rules he was using to decide which rules to flag for and which not...



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Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 4:58pm
The Umpire was Bill Brockbank, sorry I do not have any contact details but I could try and get them at the next event...

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 5:10pm

At the Irish SB3 Nationals I was on the water judge. In adition to judging Rule 42 the SIs permited me to wave a yellow flag and hail an infringing boat. In effect this was an on the water jury protest. All boats so hailed took turns.

It worked very well, in so far as the competitors were all happy. There have been too many infingements and broken boats in the class recently (and not enough protests). Even the winner, in his aceptance speech, said thank you!

I was lucky, in that the 4th boat round the 1st windward mark came in on port and fouled a starboard tack boat. I whistled, she took turns and lost about 10 places. Competitors took care after that. Many of them came up to me afterwards and said that rule observance was the best they had ever seen at an SB3 event.

However, I feel that this system does remove the self-policing aspect of rule enforcement. I would be much happier acting as umpire - reacting to boat on boat protests as we do in match and team racing. The rules for partialy umpired team racing would be adequate.

One incident at the very last finish of the event, almost the last boats to cross the lineillustrates my reserves. A starboard boat was laying the pin end of the finish when a port tack boat tacked very close to leeward. It was almost certainly an infringement. However the ROW boat did not bother to protest, but instead criticised me because I did not whistle.

I do not want to go down that route - unless, as in medal races we can have adequate numbers of umpires on the water. However, as umpires are thirsty creatures, and given to eating heartily, especially when the club is paying, competitors would have to accept a substantialm increase in entry fees.

Gordon

 

 



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Gordon


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

The Umpire was Bill Brockbank, sorry I do not have any contact details but I could try and get them at the next event...

http://www.rya.org.uk/WorkingWithUs/raceofficials/Pages/directoryraceofficials.aspx -
RYA Race Officiails Website - go to page 5.. et voila


Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 8:03pm
@ Laser4000; Thanks for the link! I'll contact Bill directly

@ Gordon: I'm a member for a working party for Kiel-Week were we want to try something similar. Can you send me the SI for the SB3 Nationals to look at how the wording is for direct judging in a fleet race?
Please use the link in my signature and you'll find an E-mail address on my blog.
Thanks.


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Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Sep 08 at 8:59am

Spyderman,

the relevant SI was:

15. PENALTY SYSTEM

15.1 RRS 44.1 and 44.2 are changed so that only one turn, including one tack and one gybe, is required.

15.2 Appendix P – immediate penalties for breaking RRS 42 will apply. RRS P2.3 will not apply and RRS P2.2 is changed so that it will apply to any penalty after the first one.

15.3 To encourage boats to take penalties afloat, protest committee members may blow a whistle and point a yellow flag at the infringing boat(s) when they see what they believe to be a breach of the RRS. They may then lodge a protest if no action is taken by the infringing boat(s).

 

Whilst this worked well I would in fact be happier if a variant of the team racing rules for partially umpired races was used. I believe that race officials are not there to replace the competitors as the enforcers of the rules, but may give an on-the-water decsion should a competitor protest.

 

Another incident at another event was interesting. A boat infringed on the start line, Victim, sailing a borowed boat, hails protest, but does not display a red flag (boat over 6m), however infringing boat does protest correctly. Having observed closely the incident, and as Jury chairman I wanted the incident to come before a hearing. After consultation with RO and another NJ, also on the water, we were worried that the infringing boat would not proceed with protest. We decided that I should protest in order to guarantee that a valid protest was made.  This I did, which encouraged infringing boat to protest. I then withdrew my protest, as soon as hearing began.

Juries don't often protest Part 2 incidents, but in this case the infringement was blatant, tok place within full view of RO and Jury, and was the type of behaviour we do not want to see.

 

Interested to hear peoples comments

Gordon



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Gordon


Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 17 Sep 08 at 11:54pm
Thanks Gordon!
I would not use the same flag for rule 42 and for drawing attention to an infringement of a rule in part two. That aside, I agree that it would change the nature of racing if judges start to "police" the fleet. I still believe that the first initiative should be with the sailors, except in blatant (possible rule 2) incidents like the one you describe.
The fact that we can't see everything more or less dictates this approach.



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Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com


Posted By: deadrock
Date Posted: 02 Oct 08 at 9:23pm
Back on the subject of the 2009-12 rules, I notice that Rule 17.2 has gone.
It was a handy rule on downwind legs, as it countered the increased luffing
power leading boats gained from the abolition of the mast-abeam rule.
Going through the lee of a boat in front was a genuine opportunity, and
could not be blocked by the other boat. Merely because few sailors
understand the rule is insufficient reason ( at least IMO) for ditching it.

Comments?


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 02 Oct 08 at 10:05pm
I think a rule infringement under17.2 was quite hard to prove in a protest room, hence why it was removed.

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Oct 08 at 2:43pm

Following discussions after the SB3 Worlds - many sailors reported being  shocked by the flagrant rule abuse especially at marks - I have made the following suggestion for future events.

NB SB3 use a 1 turn penalty for rule 44.1. Other classe might go for a 3 turn penalty if umpire signals penalty

Find some experienced team or match racing umpires.

Insert following in SIs:

"1.Races will be partially umpired. When a boat protests under a rule of part 2 or under rule 31.1, 42 or 44, except under rule 14 when there is damage or injury, a boat involved in the incident may promptly acknowledge breaking a rule and take the appropriate penalty. If no boat takes a penalty, an umpire may decide whether any boat has broken a rule, and shall signal the decision as follows:
 
  1. A green flag (or green and white flag) means "No penalty";
  2. A red flag means "One or more boats are penalised". The umpire shall hail or signal each boat to be penalised.
A boat penalised by an umpire shall take a Two Turn Penalty under rule 44.2.
 
If no decision is signalled the protesting boat is entitled to a hearing.
 
2. When a boat:
  1. fails to take a penalty signalled by an umpire;
  2. commits a breach of sportsmanship;
  3. breaks rule 14 when damage or injury may have been caused;
or when a boat gains an advantage despite taking a penalty, an umpire may take action without a protest from another boat. An umpire may impose a penalty of one or more turns, each including one tack and one gybe, signalled by displaying a red flag and hailing the boat accordingly, or report the incident to the protest committee by displaying a black flag, or both"
 
Open a tab at club bar for the umpires after racing - they are going to need it. Tab and umpire expenses to be paid for out of entry fees
 
Apologise to local boatbuilders because they will have less work to do after the event.
 
This proposition is intended to leave the initiative to boats to protest... we umpire and do not referee
 
Gordon
 


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Gordon



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