slowing down using your body
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4585
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 5:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: slowing down using your body
Posted By: tmoore
Subject: slowing down using your body
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 8:59pm
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in a club race on the start line i often heel the boat right on me so my body goes in the water and slows down my approach to the start line or trail my leg in the water. i got protested for this, what is your view and what rules should i be looking at (is there an online rule book anywhere?) the stupid thing is the protesting boat then went on to hit me (tryed to get between me and the comitee boat when the gap was about 6") and did no penalty turns. either way, the results for the series do not change as i have 2races in hand. you opinions please ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Replies:
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 9:02pm
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I can see anything wrong with this, i do it all the time, it's not like your gaining a distinct advantage. Then again i don't know all the rules and this could be conceived as dangerous. ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 9:15pm
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When you stick a hand or a foot or any other body part into the water to slow down, you break rule 42. "Propel" in the rules does not only mean forward. From the RRS: 42 PROPULSION 42.1 Basic Rule Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. It is an advantage to keep a boat in place just below the starting line next to the committee vessel, because you can then start as top windward boat. If you keep your position by sticking a foot in the water so you slow down, you propel the boat with a negative force and that is illegal. ------------- Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 9:21pm
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ok, thanks for the explanation spyderman. it doesnt affect my results and i was asking from a point of interest. does 'using the water' refer to, is it merely waves, tide etc or does it extend to anything else? in theory i could protest any boat which heels enough for the crew to be hit by water in this case? i know this is taking the rule very literally but in theory i wold be well within my rights and should win a protest (although not very sportsmanshiply - if thats a word). I wouldnt do this, just interested in finding loopholes etc in the rules. ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 9:26pm
If it went to protest, it would be a matter of proving it was deliberate action and taken in order to slow the boat.
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 9:34pm
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ds it matter whether it was deliberat or not? you cant be absolved from hitting anothe boat by accident...... ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 9:58pm
i guess it could be hard to prove if your bum is just dragging in the water for a few seconds..(i.e. lull in the wind or header or dropped the mainsheet ) however if you got your leg in the water that is cheating  ------------- |
Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 28 Aug 08 at 10:46pm
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I think you can apply the same test as for the rest of rule 42 From the http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/42interpretations2005-%5B515%5D.doc - Rule 42 Interpretations for the 2005 - 2008 Racing Rules of Sailing Basic 4: Except when permitted under rule 42.3, any single action of the body that propels the boat (in any direction) with the effect of one stroke of a paddle is prohibited. So if your body accidentally hit the water without that effect you don't break rule 42. But if it has the same effect as the paddle, you are up the creek without one. ------------- Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com |
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 12:36pm
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If you chuck your weight at the back of the boat that will slow you down without breaking rule 42 ------------- |
Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 1:06pm
| radixon, if you mean 'go and sit at the back of the boat so the transom drags' that would be fine. But if you mean 'throw yourself to the back of the boat, and then stop suddenly', like an ooch in reverse, I don't think that would be allowed. |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 1:30pm
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Teabagging crew and or helm would certainly have more effect than a paddle stroke, but I can't agree that accidentally hitting the water is illegal. I'd interpret low wiring or hiking with it's attendant risk of teabagging as "performing an act of seamanship". Rule doesn't say seamanship has to be perfect or even that good - I'd go with earlier interpretation that deliberate slowing (using body drag etc) is illegal, but accidental isn't.
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Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 2:23pm
| Sails out and a sudden luff, as well with moving backwards should legally do the trick.....best to keep your weight in the boat so you dont get heavy, wet and cold! |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 4:18pm
| What about sticking a wing in? With our rather large mesh covered wings, the drag's pretty high, and we often make use of that at crowded starts or mark roundings. |
Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 4:58pm
I don't think sticking a wing in the water is a problem: you adjust the trim of the hull which is specifically permitted: Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. ------------- Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com |
Posted By: theycallmegod
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 5:31pm
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So are you allowed to capsize on the line? It would leave you a nice gap to leeward to bear away into...
------------- B14 698 Laser 135776 |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 7:40pm
| Really questionable behaviour like that could be covered by Rule 2... |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 9:00pm
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Once stuck the 300 in on a rol tack in very light airs - with 40 seconds to go. The pull-up effect was definitley more than a singlr stroke of the paddle and I won the start! Everyone laughing too much to protest! |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 29 Aug 08 at 9:03pm
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but how would it be proven to be purposeful as opposed to accidentally capsizing? does it not seem strange your allowed to heel the boat to dig a wing in yet not really allowed to flatten it in the opposite manner - after all, both are using the same movements simply reversed..... also taking that rule very 'word for word', when you tack and push/kick off the hull you create a large pivoting moment and so does that become illegal? ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 01 Sep 08 at 10:40am
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Moving your body to propel the boat is prohibited under rule 42. However a helm or crew in a normal sitting out position who then allows the boat to heel to windward so that his body is in hte water is NOT MOVING. This would be using the force of wind and water to decrease the speed, not moving their bodies to propel the boat. Kicking with the feet, padling with the hands or deliberately moving a body part out of a seamnlike position would be prohibited. - sitting in the water is legal!
Gordon
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 01 Sep 08 at 4:17pm
| A luff whilst pushing the boom out stops a boat in a very short distance and is completely legal. |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 01 Sep 08 at 4:25pm
| It also doesn't make leeway and gives you the opportunity to accelerate off again in no time. You guys should try a bit of team racing. |
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 01 Sep 08 at 4:47pm
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I second redback on that one, a backed main will slow you quicker than almost anything, just remember that as soon as you start moving backwards you loose ALL rights regardless of anything else. So make sure you only come to a stop rather than back up (unless you have lots of space!) ------------- FLAT IS FAST! Shifts Happen |