Would you have protested?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4540
Printed Date: 01 Jun 25 at 11:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Would you have protested?
Posted By: tack'ho
Subject: Would you have protested?
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 8:38am
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Looking throught the protest descions on the ISAF website it looks like the Spanish, Italians and possibly the USA Claimed for redresss against the race committees descision not to DSQ Deanmark in the final race.
Who here would have done the same? The rules are fairly complex from the look of the descision and could have gone either way.
For what its worth I don't think I would have. In my mind they were actually at a disadvantage sailing someone else's boat and giving the fleet nearly a 4 min start. I in my mind if I hadn't been able to sail better than them over course of the regatta a victory in the protest room wouldn't make me a better sailor than them, which is why I compete, and would make it me look like a bad loser.
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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Replies:
Posted By: Laser 173312
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 8:42am
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Spot on. I totally agree.
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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 8:45am
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if i am honest with a gold medal at stake i think i would have protested
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Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 8:50am
It's a difficult question from a rules perspective. I still think struggle with them not being scored DNS as according to 'Appendix A - scoring a series it's a boat that scores points' BUT given the medal race and if their boat had a damaged mast step..then I can see that they could be given discretion by the jury to use another boat.
I wonder however if /when there boat was 'quarantined' by the jury / protest c'ttee when it came in with the broken mast..now I'm not saying any thing was done to it..but all the cameras / people would be looking out to sea when the medal race was on...
As per my previous post ...
Originally posted by laser4000
What I reckon's happened is that whilst the
sailors were happy to accept the status quo, the "spanish or italian
sparky" or his equivalent either decided himself or got the call from
the 'chef de mission' to get back in the room... you've got to be a
brave man to say 'no' to your paymaster especially as if it looks like
the chances of gold in other fleets is limited..
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Accorind to sailjuice the http://sailjuice.squarespace.com/home/2008/8/19/danish-49er-gold-still-under-threat.html - italian chef de mission needs more medals and is now clutching at straws..
Getitng back to the question posed - would I have protested for an olympic medal - probably...and I would hope that the team 'management' would have enough good grace to accept that its my decision..which I think with GBR would be the case
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Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 9:52am
I think if I'd been in their shoes I'd have protested the race committe, but I'd leave it at that, going to the Arbitration pannel is pointless, it makes a mockery of the whole thing, not just the medal race, or sailing as a whole, but of the Olympics in general, its utterly pointless!! Besides how are a group of lawers who have no knowledge of sailing going to be better at understanding the rules of a sailing event that the people who wrote them?!
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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 11:55am
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Originally posted by oz man
if i am honest with a gold medal at stake i think i would have protested |
If it was a UK event then no but at the Olympics in their shoes yes; it's their job and a gold medal is a gold medal, people soon forget the details.
This will impact future earnings and opportunities; gold is everything.
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Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 12:08pm
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I think had the gold been won by someone else in the protest room, it would've been meaningless - thats bad sportsmanship in my eyes - I would definetly not want to win it that way.
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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 1:35pm
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i wouldnt want to win it that way either but i would still protest
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Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 1:39pm
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if you didn't want to win, then sure;y you are just denting someone's glory!
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Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 1:48pm
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what i mean by not wanting to win it that way is id rather go out and win every race and win the medal but if that didnt happen and i needed to take it to protest to win i would. it wouldnt mean i wanted to deny anyone else a medal for the sake of it. as ben showed in his abandoned medal race you have to be a ruthless b**tard at times no ones going to give you an inch and you cant afford to give anyone else an inch otherwise you will lose thats the difference between a club sailor and an olympic gold medalist.
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Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 1:56pm
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yeah i do see your point oz man, but i think it was sucha huge disadvantage for the danish anyway, that they were destined to win it.
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Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 2:03pm
If I genuinely thought I was racing a Croatian boat and altered my tactics accordingly then yes. If it made no difference, then no.
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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
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Posted By: theycallmegod
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 2:54pm
I probably wouldnt have...
Winning the gold in a courtroom would've felt hollow....
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B14 698
Laser 135776
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Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 3:29pm
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 3:53pm
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I don't blame the Spaniards for protesting, they've trained for xxx years for the Olympics and it was a bizarre and potentially grey situation. When the Spaniards and Italians "jointly" appealed the Italians were represented by "Mr. Jordi Lamarca of Spain" - now I may be wrong but that smells, well, kind of smelly.
Having lost the protest I'd accept it. The Spaniards have now been sporting and done so. The Italians (see edit below) sadly are unable to do that. It's very sad for sailing and sport in general.
Edited slightly later: From what I've read elsewhere the Italian sailors aren't happy about what's going on, it's the Italian Olympic Committee that has decided to take this to the Court of Arbitration not the Italian sailing team. Maybe that's why they didn't want to represent themselves at the appeal...
Mike
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Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 20 Aug 08 at 11:12pm
In sailboat racing the Rules are part of the game. Therefore if you can win in the protest room you go there. Sportmanship has got nothing to do with it.
Ainslie (twice) and Goodison used the Rules to win their gold medals. Some people might consider that what they did was unsportsmanlike.
What do you say to that.
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Jimbob
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Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 12:39am
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I say rubbish. The rules are there to ensure fair competition.
ie the measurement rules exist to ensure everyone has kit conforming to the ideal of the class, in the case of the 49er one design. The fact you can in this case use the same rule to force out some who was competing in a measured boat with no advantage gained doesn't mean you should. in other words the spirit if not the minutae of the rule was adhered to.
the racing rules of sailing apply to everyone equally, had Robert, Zach or the swedish fella been a better sailor than them, then Ben or Paul would not have been able to do that to them!!
oh and if you think sportsmanship has nothing to do with sport then i think your missing the point entirely!!
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 8:53am
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Originally posted by Jimbob
In sailboat racing the Rules are part of the game. Therefore if you can win in the protest room you go there. Sportmanship has got nothing to do with it.
Ainslie (twice) and Goodison used the Rules to win their gold medals. Some people might consider that what they did was unsportsmanlike.
What do you say to that. |
To that I say that what Ainslie (twice) and Goodison did was not unsportsmanlike. I also say that it's rather different to trying to overturn a protest and subsequent appeal by resorting to a court of law. I don't consider that to be part of the game. It would seem that you do. Hey ho!
Mike
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 9:06am
No appeals, basic entry conditions of any ISAF sanctioned race be it at you local club or olympic medal race
ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each
competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under
the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided
in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules; and
(c) with respect to such determination, not to resort to any court or
other tribunal not provided in the rules.
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Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Norbert
No appeals, basic entry conditions of any ISAF sanctioned race be it at you local club or olympic medal race
ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each
competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under
the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided
in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under
the rules; and
(c) with respect to such determination, not to resort to any court or
other tribunal not provided in the rules. |
Indeed - does breaching that by complaining to CAS (even if not their choice) put the sailors as risk of action under rule 69, from which one would assume they would be banned for a while...
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Posted By: Much FWB
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by laser4000
Originally posted by Norbert
No appeals, basic entry conditions of any ISAF
sanctioned race be it at you local club or olympic medal raceACCEPTANCE
OF THE RULESBy participating in a race conducted under these racing
rules, eachcompetitor and boat owner agrees(a) to be governed by the
rules;(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken underthe
rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures providedin them, as
the final determination of any matter arising underthe rules; and(c) with
respect to such determination, not to resort to any court orother tribunal
not provided in the rules. |
Indeed - does breaching that by
complaining to CAS (even if not their choice) put the sailors as risk of
action under rule 69, from which one would assume they would be
banned for a while... |
Not in the slightest - The CAS is a legitimate appeal tribunal as provided
for in the rules.
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Posted By: golfdane
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 1:14pm
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Originally posted by Jimbob
Sportmanship has got nothing to do with it.
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2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play
Might I add:
3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES
By participating in a race conducted under these racing rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees
(a) to be governed by the rules;
(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules; and
(c) with respect to such determination, not to resort to any court or other tribunal not provided in the rules.
The spanish and italian OC are twisting the facts in their request. The fact, that danes requested to use the croatian boat according to SI 21.2,and at the first possible moment subjected it for measurement, is left out of the request for consideration to CAS.
SI21.2 does not exclude hulls from equipment, and why should it?
Whatever other infractions that were done (appendix G in regards to identification), none of them appearently carry an automatic disqualification.
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Posted By: golfdane
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 1:15pm
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Originally posted by Much FWB
Originally posted by laser4000
Originally posted by Norbert
No appeals, basic entry conditions of any ISAF
sanctioned race be it at you local club or olympic medal raceACCEPTANCE
OF THE RULESBy participating in a race conducted under these racing
rules, eachcompetitor and boat owner agrees(a) to be governed by the
rules;(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken underthe
rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures providedin them, as
the final determination of any matter arising underthe rules; and(c) with
respect to such determination, not to resort to any court orother tribunal
not provided in the rules. |
Indeed - does breaching that by
complaining to CAS (even if not their choice) put the sailors as risk of
action under rule 69, from which one would assume they would be
banned for a while... |
Not in the slightest - The CAS is a legitimate appeal tribunal as provided
for in the rules. |
Could you please tell me where CAS is mentioned in the Racing Rules of Sailing?
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Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 6:19pm
Mike BZ
Do you read peoples' posts or do you just make up what they say?
Nowhere either in my original post or in your copy of it do I mention courtroom.
But hey ho!
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Jimbob
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Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by golfdane
Originally posted by Much FWB
Originally posted by laser4000
Originally posted by Norbert
No appeals, basic entry conditions of any ISAF
sanctioned race be it at you local club or olympic medal raceACCEPTANCE
OF THE RULESBy participating in a race conducted under these racing
rules, eachcompetitor and boat owner agrees(a) to be governed by the
rules;(b) to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken underthe
rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures providedin them, as
the final determination of any matter arising underthe rules; and(c) with
respect to such determination, not to resort to any court orother tribunal
not provided in the rules. |
Indeed - does breaching that by
complaining to CAS (even if not their choice) put the sailors as risk of
action under rule 69, from which one would assume they would be
banned for a while... |
Not in the slightest - The CAS is a legitimate appeal tribunal as provided
for in the rules. |
Could you please tell me where CAS is mentioned in the Racing Rules of Sailing? |
It's not in the RRS, but in the rules nevertheless:
Other documents that govern the event: http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_122.pdf - The Olympic Charter
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Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 23 Aug 08 at 9:42am
Court of Arbitration for Sport decision:
THE CASE HAS BEEN DISMISSED!
Jonas Warrer and Martin Ibsen of Denmark will keep their Gold Medal.
http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com/2008/08/cas-decision-in-49er-gold-medal.html - More
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Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 23 Aug 08 at 11:55am
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And finally common sense is upheld
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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss
Crew on 505 8780
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