Anti-cat
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Multihulls
Forum Name: Dinghy multihulls
Forum Discription: For those who prefer two (or more) hulls to one!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4049
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 7:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Anti-cat
Posted By: Phil54
Subject: Anti-cat
Date Posted: 15 Mar 08 at 9:18pm
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After many years of racing dingies/cats around the country,I wonder why cats cannot race at certain major handicap events? some clubs are not suitable-but most are.
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Replies:
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 15 Mar 08 at 9:22pm
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Monohull v's Multihull One can tack quickly, the other takes a wide area to tack. You can sail/race on a handicap system but depending on the course/wind direction etc the Cats may wind hands down. Welcome to the forum anyway!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Mar 08 at 10:07pm
| same reason that you can't race a mono at certain large cat handicap events I should think... |
Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 15 Mar 08 at 11:14pm
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Radixon
"Monohull v's Multihull One can tack quickly, the other takes a wide area to tack. You can sail/race on a handicap system but depending on the course/wind direction etc the Cats may wind hands down." Neither of these two reasons are valid. Some Cats can tack quicker than some skiff type boats. And in certain wind conditions Cats are very uncompetitive. So it's swings and roundabouts in Handicap racing. ------------- Jimbob |
Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 12:41am
Agreed, but that is because they have historically moved in different circles. If cats were to allow monos to handicap events then would they come? And vice versa? Probably not. |
Posted By: Phil54
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 12:49pm
| I agree with Jimbob most modern cats tack quite well now , a couple of years ago i did the birkett trophy at ullswater in my shadow with about 200 other dingies,as you can imagine the atmosphere towards me was slightly tense at times,but I really enjoyed the race and will do it again (if allowed).I just wish some parties could be a little more open minded at these traditional events. |
Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 7:18pm
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I have limited experence of racing cats and mono on the same course but I found the experence of being overtaken by a number of Tornado s on a beam reach a most unpleasent experence that I'm not keen to repeat, I was in the contender so not that slow but the T comming past just went to close for my comfort. So much so that I think it might put me off a join cat mono open meeting,
------------- Lark 2170 |
Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 8:18pm
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its never nice to be over taken is it being passed by a 49er while in a topper probably isnt that great either dont see many clubs turning them away though |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 8:23pm
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Do these handicap races include 49ers and the like? At Ballyholme we all sail the same course in the winter (even in the summer we share half of the marks) so there's no reason why cats and mono can't share the same space. But the main problem with handicaps is that cats are so much faster than most monos. So do we sail the same course and finish 20minutes earlier than the rest of you? Or run average lap times? In the past when we had a 49er fleet we used to race against them because putting a 49er in a handicap race against, say, a Laser is equally meaningless. The other problem with putting cats against monos is that there aren't proper PY returns for most cats. We race off the formula-based SCHRS because there just aren't enough cats to give decent PY returns. What many do is take those Cats that do have a PY and extrapolate against the SCHRS numbers to give a PY equivalence. Not sure if that would be legal though in large open handicap events. ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 8:58pm
The organising club can do anything it finds reasonabkle to establish trial numbers for PYs. If sailors don't like what the club does they don't hav to enter... As Cat sailors seem to regard the SCHRS as giving reasonable results then using it to interpolate PY numbers for Cat classes seems eminently sensible. |
Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 9:00pm
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At Grafham there are no problems whatsoever having cats and monohulls racing together on the same course. And in the Wednesday evening handicap races using Fast, Medium and Slow Fleets, the boats sailing include Hurricanes, Dart 18s, Sprint 15s, 49ers, Assy Canoes, RS 6 and 700s, Flying Fifteens, Lasers, Solos,and down to Picos and Toppers.
And a Sprint 15 won the Fast Fleet Series in 2006 against the fast monohulls although normally one of the latter usually wins it. ------------- Jimbob |
Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 16 Mar 08 at 9:03pm
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At Grafham there are no problems whatsoever having cats and monohulls racing together on the same course. We do it all the time on Sundays. And in the Wednesday evening handicap Series using Fast, Medium and Slow Fleets, the boats sailing include Hurricanes, Dart 18s, Sprint 15s, 49ers, Assy Canoes, RS 6 and 700s, Flying Fifteens, Lasers, Solos,and down to Picos and Toppers.
And a Sprint 15 won the Fast Fleet Series in 2006 against the fast monohulls although one of the latter usually wins it. ------------- Jimbob |
Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 17 Mar 08 at 9:17am
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I think that there is no finer sight than a Tornado in full flight. Happy to have them over taking me any day of the week!
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Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 17 Mar 08 at 10:12am
Yes I'd agree but at the same time they are so much bigger than many of the monos that it can be a little un-nerving when they get close. I am not anti cats just don't want to sail near them if I'm in a small slow boat, PS although I never realy enjoy being overtaken I have had plenty of experence and I'm just about used to it now  .------------- Lark 2170 |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 17 Mar 08 at 10:48am
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Hi Jim - yes this is true but it has to be said that on light wind evenings the cats are all well behind the monos and fighting to avoid last place. What makes it tolerable is that there is a biggish group (5-10) of Sprint 15s who take part (plus a couple of Prindle 15s & the odd Dart 18) and they can regard light wind evenings (mentally) as a race against the other Catamarans. The payback comes on windy evenings when the Cats are very competitive. A well sailed 49er or 29er or IC, etc. howerer, remains competitive across a range of conditions so the cats are at an overall disadvantage. This is made more tolerable by having a big discard allowance on the series (best 7 results to count) so you can often disard more than half your results if you attend lots of the Wednesday Evenings. Cheers Bob |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 9:37am
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So would you let kites into cat events? Windsurfers into Texel? 98 foot
canting keel maxis into a cat regatta? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 11:24am
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I think the point is that every club - and a club is hopefully just a grouping of vaguely likeminded people - has a right - even duty - to do what is regarded as best for those people to have fun sailing.
There are whole hosts of different restrictions at different clubs to suit their own requirements. The club where I sail prohibits Catamarans (but not the narrow Laser Vortex or Fun boat) and B14s because they don't fit through the water company gates onto the reservoir, any kind of keelboat because the weight is too much for our access winch, two string boats because there are concerns that the visibility is too limited on a moderate sized reservoir with a lot of crossing upwind and downwind, and sailboards are not permitted on the water on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings, but are welcome at other times. There are clubs and events that are restricted to boats faster than a given speed, boats slower than a given speed, events and clubs that are restricted to particular classes, all sorts of things. At UK inland clubs keelboats and sailboards are probably as widely restricted as catamarans, and kite surfers are almost universally banned. The special requirements of kite surfers, catamarans and keelboats make it easy to understand why they are limited. The restrictions on sailboards are perhaps less easy to justify. |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 11:27am
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My word this website is slow, at present. I bet that is why all the double listings. I bet the server is about to crash. |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 11:35am
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At Grafham we let the sailboards take part but exclude them from the series results. Most sailboarders do not race so we just get the odd one racing. If we got a group do a series we would award seperate prizes. The reason for this is in light winds they pump around the course, in strong winds they change their rig, etc so it is impossible to give them an appropriate PY that can be justified to the rest of the sailors who sail under different rules. |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 12:19pm
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I must admit I much prefer class racing anyway as this gives the "fairest" result!
------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 12:23pm
Why is this different from any other class that has spectacular differences in performance in different conditions, be it Thames Raters, foiler Moths or even 420s? You should just set a PY that averages out over a series. Anything else is just anti board discrimination... |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 2:42pm
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Corr - it is hard to justify to a big fleet of mono sailors why they should sail against a sail board when he pumps his way round the whole course on a light wind day. It is not discrimination against boards - they have different rules. If they get a number to attend they would get their own prizes.......... |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 18 Mar 08 at 8:14pm
My club turns them away. Hobie Tigers too; despite allowing F18 cats and Tempests (which scare the bits off me). Apparently it's all based on an unbiased "risk assesment system". Though one suspects that the appliers of said system don't much like skiffs and only like fast cats if they also like their owners! (though to be fair, the F18 owner is pretty damned good). .. but our cats do race in the same handicap series, though normally with a separate start. ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 19 Mar 08 at 9:27am
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The Hobie Tiger is an F18, so if they're allowing other F18s maybe have a word to find out what the differences are that make the Tiger more dangerous. Other than the fact that tigers are pretty scary animals. |
Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 19 Mar 08 at 2:20pm
Which club is that? ------------- |