Grafham Grand Prix
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3733
Printed Date: 13 Jul 25 at 4:04am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Grafham Grand Prix
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Subject: Grafham Grand Prix
Date Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 11:02am
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Who's going? What you gonna be sailing? I may be there in N12 3111 George ------------- RS600 988 |
Replies:
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 2:51pm
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Hi George, You can view the list of entries on the following link: http://gwsc.no-ip.org/Gwsc_Results/Open Meetings/2007/Grand Prix entries.htm - http://gwsc.no-ip.org/Gwsc_Results/Open%20Meetings/2007/Gran d%20Prix%20entries.htm For those have not yet entered you have until the end of 28 Dec to enter, which I believe you can do by phoning the Grafham Office. Cheers Bob |
Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 3:51pm
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I'll be there in my radial, just hoping the wind forecast improves! ------------- |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 5:06pm
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I'll be there on my F16; I also need to forecast to improve; maybe add 10 kts ! ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 10:44pm
Looks like a foiling 600 will be making an appearance  Any advice for a grafham virgin?  ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: BarnsieB14768
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 12:21am
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Well guys the 10 B14s will be there representing our Winter Pursuit Team. Think we may be the biggest fleet in the Fast Handicap fleet that are currently entered. Roll on the winged speed machine and pray for wind. |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 9:32am
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don't leave anything valuable in the changing room, and stay clear of the dam! ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: ding33
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 11:56am
| No 18s allowed :( |
Posted By: ratface
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 12:07pm
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would do it but cant get boat there and i need to have my first sail in the boat still and thats going to be sunday
maybe for this but you are allowed for the tiger  ------------- http://www.blym.org.uk/ - BLYM http://www.blym.org.uk/hydrs/index.htm - Hertfordshire Sailing team Uk-Cherub 2644 Laser 4000 -4089 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 12:08pm
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 12:46pm
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Depends which direction the wind is blowing. I don't think the club is cold. But maybe the sailing on the lake is. Forecast is around 7 knts from the west. Not good ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 1:04pm
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Grafham the coldest club in the country I think not. Try Tenby in August 2003, I spent most of the sailing week in my winter kit freezing my backside off! Not doing to GGP this year, there are a few people from Hunts going though so keep an eye open for Scorpion 1915 and say hello (the crew is cute but the helm is her dad so be careful!). Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 2:32pm
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Grafham is the coldest place i have ever sailed followed closely by Bala! after 2 capsizes in the 14 we had to come in because the cold was making me go a bit slow (mentally) and before anyone says it yes more then normall! ------------- |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 3:52pm
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GWSC cold??? You want to try Pennine SC, nestled right up there in the hills between Sheffield and Manchester. Let's just say it's not that unusual to get hail in summertime. Tip for Grafham - don't swallow the water! ------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 5:26pm
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Agreed on the " Don't swallow the water" front ... Its not that nice. Oh .. After my 7th or 8th sail there, I finally noticed the sign that says " When you hear an alarm, Head as far upwind as you can, and get to the club if possible " Thats one to pay attention too I think ...... ------------- Vareo - 149 "Secrets" http://www.TandyUKServers.co.uk" rel="nofollow - TandyUK Servers |
Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 5:58pm
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i vote pennine, for coldest in england, hellensburgh for scotland, but i've never been past loch lomond so i can't confirm that royal tay is colder, but i would put money on it anyway given the reports. ------------- FLAT IS FAST! Shifts Happen |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 6:27pm
| South Shields is my vote for coldest south of the border- and I've never actually made it onto the water there... |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 7:58pm
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Scout nationals were there (which I won ). It wasn't that cold.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 9:47pm
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Been sailing there for 30 years and it's not happened yet. (and I'd forgotten about that alarm). ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 10:18pm
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dare i ask what teh alarm is for? ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 10:45pm
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Something to do with chlorine i believe ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 11:37pm
Chlorine The posionous green stuff Thats not good ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 1:45am
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Bala is definatly the coldest, especially during the winter ------------- |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 9:54am
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Yeah there is an alarm in case there is a Chlorine leak from the treatment works! Sounds like that could be messy! And Stuart you are right Bala is BLOODY cold! horrible in fact in winter ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 9:55am
Ah, I guess they use it at the treatment works. Would explain why upwind is the place to get to. |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 2:08pm
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Grafham, Coldest? You are kidding. Halifax SC is not only 150 mile further north, but its over a 1000' higher and a lot windier. Compared to that, Grafham is a mild, nay, balmy beach! Keilder can be a bit chilly as well - but at least when you finish and get ashore, the welcome in the clubhouse is warm - unlike at Grafham - maybe that's what you guys were meaning! |
Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 30 Dec 07 at 1:48am
------------- Life is too short. Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 30 Dec 07 at 7:56am
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But that is not the same sound as the hooter that says the lake is closed. Not looking very windy at the moment ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 30 Dec 07 at 6:43pm
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well done to everyone who made it to GW; 160ish entries from 72 different sailing clubs around the country Shame there was not much wind! Never really go my F16 going ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 30 Dec 07 at 6:51pm
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http://gwsc.no-ip.org/Gwsc_Results/Open%20Meetings/2007/GGP2007.htm - Here are the Results
------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 30 Dec 07 at 7:15pm
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I see the moth bunch didn't really bother, I don't blame them really, especially with the handicap GWSC gave them.... ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 30 Dec 07 at 7:56pm
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Eh; yes they did not bother. The handicap is 60 points better than the Hayling Handicap. Hayling sail them off 690 and they still win. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 8:26am
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166 boats entered, both races were sailed for all classes in a little more wind than was forecast and the results were on the Grafham website by 6pm. Pretty good eh? A little more wind would have been even better! Cheers Bob |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 10:17am
1, Simon is the best in the country, 2 he only sails when conditions suit him. Across the fleet most of us struggle to sail to RS800 handicap so far! I'm sure our handicap is going to end up pretty fast, but just pre-emptively changing it based on one single persons results is a bit odd. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 10:36am
Not so. It was changed as a result of performance at Grafham. The Main driver was the DoE.
Ian Fosdyke won the Duke of Ed handicap event at Grafham in Sept. He won it despite capsizing in EVERY race at least once. He was racing on something like 850. The club re-calculated the results on 750 and he woud still have been second. It was a fairly windy event. How can ANY boat be near the front of the race having capsized in every race. I was sailing in the same regatta, did not capsize at all and Ian was in front of me in every race. I was sailing on 690. As for sailing when the conditions suit. Welcome to the cat sailing handicap problem. We know we will do well when it's windy and know we'll be screwed when it's not. As soon as a Moth is foiling, it should be be on 690 (IMO); when it's not foiling it's stuffed just like a Catamaran is before we get going. Moths foil in about 7-8 kts, most races will be more than 7kts. Thus I think 750 is more than fair (considering a Moth would still have come 2nd in the Grafham club champs having capsized at least once in every race). ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 11:24am
| A capsize may lose you 60 seconds. You might win a handicap race by 2 minutes. Therefore you can capsize and win. If a capsize costs you 10 minutes and you still win that might be an issue. Why cant a moth be allowed to win without having its handicap changed? It seems to be perfectly allowable for either the Fireball or Merlin Rocket! |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 12:15pm
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It was under review anyway. Some moth sailors are quite happy to claim the boat is fast as a Tornado, but then some moth sailors moan when the handicap drops. Cannot have t both ways. And the PY is always a compromise. YOu never see Cats winning light wind races as they don't go in lignt winds. The Moth won't either. Both Cats and Moths PY's move towards their higher wind performance because of the way the PY formula deals with performance that is below the current PY. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 6:59pm
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Glad to see that the 14s had good success. Even when they're in the slowest conditions for the class
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 7:00pm
Isn't it slow conditions for every class ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: ratface
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 7:03pm
not for the Thames A rater ------------- http://www.blym.org.uk/ - BLYM http://www.blym.org.uk/hydrs/index.htm - Hertfordshire Sailing team Uk-Cherub 2644 Laser 4000 -4089 |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 7:22pm
I guess, i was expecting the 12 footer guys to reply with "Not with our no 1 rig with 1000 square meter sails" ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
|
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 31 Dec 07 at 8:01pm
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Fast in every condition! (apart from into uphill). ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 12:46pm
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Yes well done Howard and Adam, just goes to show that Tynemouth is the premier racing club of the North East. ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 1:19pm
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Made the Merlin h'cap look pretty favorable ... ------------- |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 3:07pm
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No Rick - we've discussed the rights and wrongs of certain handicaps on here before. My opinion was similar to yours - but people far more knowledgeable than us explained how it's apparently all perfectly fair. So despite geting 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, in the GGP there is clearly absolutely nothing wrong with the handicap of the Merlin. Maybe there isn't - maybe it's all the others that are wrong and so need increasing by 10% |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 3:54pm
I stand corrected ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 4:32pm
The top three merlins included guys who finished 2nd and 7th in the merlin nationals, the RS200s present didn't finish in the top 20 I think. Who would you expect to win? |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 4:48pm
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... and the winner I think finished 19th ... We all know crew skill factor is the most important element in any race but the Merlins do have a very nice h'cap. At WYC they are dropped to 1000 and still do very well on h'cap. ------------- |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 4:59pm
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the joys of handicap racing, the endless arguments afterwards! ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 01 Jan 08 at 9:55pm
------------- Life is too short. Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505 |
Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 12:30pm
| Ah the old shortening when the wind goes walkabout trick! Makes you delighted to race handicap if you are in a slower boat and have to drift home in no wind... That may explain the MR results if the wind died for the slower boats as I think they were one of the fastest classes in the handicap division. |
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 2:13pm
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Rick - See, I told you we were wrong. Jim - Hope it's ok for me to correct a couple of points in your otherwise well constructed argument in defense of the indefensible.
Obviously neither of these or any of the other 40+ competitors could hold a candle to the awesome talent of the Merlin fleet. To answer your question Jim, plainly, I would expect the Merlin(s) to win - as would anyone not wearing RYA issue 'PY branded' rose - tinted glasses. I don't want to single out the Merlin - there are a handful of others out there with what are generally accepted as generous handicaps and I know that the Merlin standard is very high. But come on Jim, are you really suggesting that it's that much higher than the 200s / Flying 15s etc?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 2:39pm
In general, or the particular selection of sailors from those fleets on that day on those courses in those conditions? From time to time classes seem to get in the habit of organising very strong entries for major handicap events. The Merlins are doing it at the moment. The Cherubs used to do it in the late 80s and early 90s and won all sorts of stuff, but I think its quite a few years now since they won anything, even though the current PY is very favourable for a state of the art boat. Funnily enough, if I were naive enough to look at just the results from my club this sunnmer, the one boat that appeared to have a complete gift handicap was the RS200. One very good pair of sailors ran away with our summer series, when two other hot crews jumped into one they led the fleet, and even the boat with a novice crew was well up with top 3 places a lot of the time. However I like to think I'm not that naive: our puddle suits the 200 much better than say Grafham, which being bigger is probably better for faster boats, and the start sequence this summer put the RS200s in clear air for virtually all the evening. Clearly a very hot Merlin contingent was also well suited by the conditions. But you also need to remember that the difference between front and back in most classes is around 200 points of yardstick... Handicap really makes much less difference than most people think. The thing that is really worth doing before you complain about handicaps is to rework the results with different numbers. You would be amazed at how much difference in handicap it takes to change things much - often 50 or 100 points! Are the times posted on Grafham's website (its blocked here?). Download a copy of sailwave, have a play, and tell us what you think the numbers should be... Just as an example of how things are, the i14 would still have won the first race at the Grand Prix in the fast fleet with a PY of 675 (faster than a Tornado!!) but then that handicap would put them 23rd in the second race... You really can't learn anything from small amounts of data... |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 4:03pm
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Jim, Where did you get that Handicap from? I'm looking at Handicaps at present. Most interested as to a reference for 675. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 4:50pm
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If you rework the results and give the 14 a PY of 675 then the leading 14s average lap time in race 1 is 1444 secs and the 49ers av lap time is 1453. However to make the same difference between first and second in race 2, you have to give the 14 a PY of 870, whereupon it corrects out at average lap of 1562 secs, and the leading b14 at 1686.
675 is a number I calculated to make a point. It is NOT NOT NOT a suggestion as to the correct PY for the 14! Its a very instructive exercise to take a bunch of race times, put them in a spreadsheet, and calculate a personal PY on each boat that gves them all the same corrected time. PM sent to scooby with a link to a spreadsheet. I don't want to make it public right now. |
Posted By: giraffe
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 5:18pm
| what is the reason for using average lap time. Why not fastest lap time? it is a race after all |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 5:40pm
I know what you are saying every year our club does a personal handicap day and it is very interesting to see the handicaps people are given ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
|
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 5:41pm
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Giraffe: beause if you use fastest lap time then you can cock up all but one of your laps because you are a rubbish sailor and win, whereas a reasonable guy can get all average laps and get beaten, something like that. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 5:41pm
Average lap times as used here is a way of minimising the variations in the weather by having all boats racing for about the same length of time, counting the number of laps they do, and averaging out a time per lap, rather than have all boats sail the same number of laps, and the faster boats hanging around for ages waiting for the slow ones to finish, quite possibly in more wind or less. If you used fastest lap then the lap I spent twenty minutes uspide down on wouldn't harm my race position - hey, this sounds like a good idea for *me*!! |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 8:38pm
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Jim, thanks for the link, I'll have a looksee (but the cats got mullered as there was no wind, I don't need a spreadsheet or that You missed my point, I was wondering what PY you are using for a Tornado and where you get that PY from. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 10:23pm
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Of course it's not as easy as just reflecting the results from single boats in single events, however the fact that the number of Merlins all finished at the front gives you more statisical significance with respect to the analysis of the data they present. ie. the more boats that repeat a feat the more likely it is that a common factor was at work. (in fact statiscally you would propose a null hypothosis but we don't have that long) Since the PY is based on performance not boat speed you should be able to factor out the fact it was a strong entry and modify the Py appropriatley as a result. ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 10:34pm
Some questions. Is low wind good conditions for Merlin's? All the cats were stuffed as it was light. Does that mean are PY's are wrong? (yes of course it does, I'd like a much better handicap please THIS is why cats use measurement based SCHRS or Texel. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 11:00pm
I wouldn't be suprised if Merlins were good in light to moderate. Narrowish waterlines, low wetted surface hulls etc, they're very much that style of boat. Measurement handicap doesn't seem to work for dinghies. Too many variations. Cats all seem astonishing similar in basic dynamics. It amazes me that a design as old as the Tornado is still pretty much thereabouts. Dinghies of that age are hopelessly off the pace. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 08 at 11:35pm
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I agree measurement does not work for Dinghys as you cannot easily factor in planing. As for the T, the rig is so refined on the T that it keeps it quick. You could make a faster boat by simply changing the centerboards for daggers, the hull shape is old and so not the fastest hull shape, but because it's got such a good rig on it, it holds it's own. Note that the Marstrom M20 now has an option for a T rig on it. It's probably faster in this trim. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 03 Jan 08 at 8:29am
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In defence of the Merlin it is a good all round boat that seems to sail well in nearly all conditions, and clearly the standard in the class is high. But, the fact that so many people reckon the Merlins are generously handicapped can't be a co-incidence surely? The Merlin handicap has hardly changed despite several advances in design (bigger kite, carbon everything etc). The PY system is too badly supported by club returns for these changes to be picked up. But the fact that it iis badly supported is more the fault of the ystem than the clubs. The RYA need to be more proactive in getting returns and amending PYs. It is far too easy for the powers that be to sit back and say "its only guidance, you can change the numbers if you like". Pete Vincent wrote a very good article about this in DSM a few months back. PS Merlin hulls weigh 98kg, often requiring them to carry about 20kg of lead. How many of boats don't carry this when competing in non-class events such as the GGP and BM? That's a potentially huge gain. PPS If I spent £20k on a new Merlin I'd want it to be generously handicapped too! ------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 03 Jan 08 at 9:27am
That's mad if the handicap has not moved and the boat has developed. No wonder people get fecked off! 20K for a Merlin. Fecking hell!!!!! you can get two F16's for that ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Jan 08 at 9:43am
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IMHO the reason Merlins get bad-press on handicaps is that they are a bunch of gypsies! (although they're definitely the type who travel in mercedes with laptops to prepare legal statements or accounts than the white-van "do you drive way mate?" type!!!) ...... they travel like no other class I can think of and there are good travelling Merlins "groups" in the north and south so they get to all the main events. The standard of sailing in both travelling groups is extremely high (as you'll see if you've ever sailed against them) and they are helped by the fact that the boats have evolved in rig technology and sail plan much faster than in hull/foils (canterbury tails derivatives dominate) so in light, medium or even strong conditions they do very well - it's only when it's really blowing or the course is dominated by long reaching legs that they suffer, if it's upwind/downwind over medium size (i.e. non open water) legs then they'll be bl$$dy tough to beat if sailed well ....as for £20k for a new woody MR, well value is all in the eye of the beholder isn't it? some of us look at people who drive new Ferrari's/Lambo's/Porsches off the forecourt as idiots who have more money than sense given you struggle to do more than 60 on most roads in the uk anytime except the dead of night, but to them its £kkk's spent well ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 03 Jan 08 at 10:08am
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Sorry, the £20k bit was tongue in cheek. Whilst they do cost that much, they are beautiful boats and if you can afford it and they’re your cup of tea, then why not? ------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: Sprint Bob
Date Posted: 22 Jan 08 at 10:44am
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Strange - did you see how these results were not repeated at the Bloody Mary - often the same boats/helms, admittedly in slightly more wind. Some observations With GGP (S = Slow Fleet, M=Med, F=Fast) places in parenthesis: Merlin Rockets did OK but were scattered through the fleet with places such as 14 (S4), 18 (S5) , 20 (S2), 24 (S4), 26, 28, 30, 36, 39, 76, 84, 113,124, 136, etc 505: 48 I Pinnell (M1), 66 (M4) 69 (M2), B14: 72 (F2), 73 (F5), 100, 125, 134, etc. It looks like the foiling Moth & Int 14 had a good day at QMSC in those wind conditions. Bob
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Posted By: landlocked
Date Posted: 23 Jan 08 at 5:32pm
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the merlin rocket handicap has changed twice in the last 18 months
------------- Cherub 2535 "Eggbert the Nasty" Soon to be for sale PM for Details Cherub 2657 "Slippery When Wet" Don't sail fly Cherub |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 24 Jan 08 at 9:02pm
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So they travel and are an active bunch of good sailors! Ergo the handicap should come down, remember it's not based on the boats! ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |