Laser Hull Weight
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3572
Printed Date: 27 Jan 26 at 6:42pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Laser Hull Weight
Posted By: Guest
Subject: Laser Hull Weight
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 5:54pm
|
Anyone know what it is? As far as I can see there is no minimum in these class rules http://www.laserinternational.org/rules/rules07.pdf - http://www.laserinternational.org/rules/rules07.pdf ???? |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:08pm
| The manufacturer handles the weight - its part of their build management. I heard once that a Laser builder has a measured pot with the right amont of resin, and if there's any left over he/she's required to just tip it in the bottom when the rest of the work is done. No idea if that's true though. |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:11pm
|
just looked in my owners manual and its 81kg, but thats all up weight it may not say 'boats need to be this weight or above' but its built into the builders instructions as to the weight and refinishing etc is illegal unless for repair purposes so for you to 'lose weight' you would be modifying the boat out of the class rules. although im sure people hae modified boats around the rules at some point. much more fun to race on an even playing field though, thats the only good thing lasers have going for them really. tom
------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:13pm
Ive heard that too, though chances are it came from the same source. ------------- |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:15pm
|
i remember it being around 74kgs cause it used to be the same as a 14 ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:35pm
|
no, im pretty sure its 62kg, not sure where i heard that though. would match up with what my manual says as i doubt all the rigging would be only 7kg. 19kg sounds much more likely. i may be wrong though ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:37pm
|
I'm picking up a new one tomorrow for Sarah and just wondered if I need to check the hull weight or is that OTT? ------------- |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:39pm
|
that wont be an issue i wouldnt have though. if itss a new new one then ask at the centre and they will be able to tell you exactly how it all works. im fairly sure they provide a certificate of measurement etc. i have my one somewhere that i got from the rya. tom ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:44pm
|
Many years ago I used to work for performance sailicraft in Banbury. Hull weight used to vary hugely. There was a very famous tale that for the world championships a certain famous sailor had all the boats down (they used to be stored stood on there transom like dominos  And yes they did fall down at times  ) and he weighed them all ... then put masts in them all and basically chose the best hull and spars from a selection of 40.I'm not sure if the tolerances have been tightend up scince it became an Olympic boat but variences of 10kg was not uncommon. It definately wasn't the case that extra resin was poored in as a heavy deck tended to be matched to a light hull to give the closest weight possible. I can't remember for sure but 125lbs seems to stick in my mind as the minimum weight ------------- RS300 426 18' SkiffTango Musto 051 B14 644 |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:49pm
|
i know they are still stored on the transoms. thats why they come with the red tape across the back, it stops and scratching etc. i must say that reading that apalls me. especially seeing as its meant to be a one design class. variences of 10kg. thats the difference between a radial and full rig sailor. its really made me glad that im selling it and moving on to an rs300 where i dont know this happens but if your interested in my boat, its the lighest weight it can be withing the tolerances tom ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 6:55pm
|
Can this be true? ------------- |
Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 7:07pm
|
Yes it can. so if your buying a new one make sure you know the weight. I can remember carrying them around upright when we needed to get a Black magic out ( allways seemed to be at the back for some reason?) and you could tell a heavy one very easily. The guy that selected the decks and hulls used to like a pint on Thursday so it was not uncommon for a super light or very heavy one to come out on Thursdays  which is why as a moth sailor then I used to giggle to myself that the weight varince was 25% of my total hull weight  I'm sure this sort of thing goes on in just about any factory. Anybody else out there have experience? ------------- RS300 426 18' SkiffTango Musto 051 B14 644 |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 7:33pm
|
The weight of the boats at sailing centres on the med (neilson, sunsail etc.) vary wildly because laser send out all failed QC hulls out there at cut price since they will by wreaked by guests/UV/sand anyway. I remember someone from the 3k CA saying they got hold of docs from laser on the 3k which included a scary allowable variation in build. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 7:35pm
|
Feckin hell, that's unreal. I'd be peeved if there was a 1% variation on a one design hull, but 10kg is crazy (if it's true).
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
And yes they did fall down at times 
) and he weighed them all ... then put masts in them all and basically chose the best hull and spars from a selection of 40.Posted By: 29er310
Date Posted: 09 Nov 07 at 7:52pm
I have always said that my laser was very heavy, now I know why! 
|
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 10 Nov 07 at 8:13am
|
I know there was similar variance (i.e. 5-10kg) between the SMODs chucked out for Topper in the White Formula ISO, Blaze, Buzz, Spice, Boss etc... days and it wouldn't be overly suprising to find similar variance between RS boards, particularly from those produced in the very busy days of RS200/400 production some years back - GRP/FRP production by hand just can't be that tightly controlled.... .....what you've got to hope for is that some quality control is imposed in the factory to weed out the very heavy hull/deck combos before they exit the back doors = you certainly don't normally get a chance to weigh your new (SMOD) boat when taking delivery but I know a few who have and one who even returned the boat to the builder, only to find they just sold it to someone else! ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 10 Nov 07 at 8:26am
| If it's within tolerances (wide though they may be) I don't see why they wouldn't resell it. It could be worth asking if you can take a set of bathroom scales and choose one.I have heard suggestion of people testing the stiffness of a few hulls before choosing. |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 10 Nov 07 at 10:22am
|
production by hand just can't be that tightly controlled.... Lots of issues there. In fact good control can be imposed. It is common to weight deck and hull mouldings and 'match' them to reduce the end product variance. And if things are well run to actually reject mouldings that fall outside of a controlled range in the first place. We've done it in the last year when needed, it's not something we want to do obviously but if you need to do it etc ... The key is to have realistic minimum weight limits and have a build that allows you to actually get to it or slightly below without a struggle. Then ALL boats can be bought up to the minimum plus say 0.5kg. We are switching to epoxy for Blaze production with Rondar as well as making some other engineering and deck tooling changes for 2008 - NOT to reduce typical weight but we are doing it to ensure we can follow the above approach reliably. Our epoxy boats will be no lighter than our 2007 polyester ones - intentionally. I should say the vast majority of the previous White Formula built Blazes were well constructed and the range in in terms of weight was low. The Blaze was always foamed and vacuum bagged from day one and older boats regularly prove their full competitiveness today. A good old one well sorted and with a decent sail is the equal of any other Blaze - see how few used ones are ever available ! We simply want to build our boats to a tighter target weight and faster than is possible with polyester and to meet growing demand efficiently. Owners do want the assurance that they are getting a fully competitive boat, down to weight and as light as the next one. It is daft that anyone should have to consider examining multiple hulls to get a 'good' one. It is easier to build accurately to a target weight in epoxy but there is a price premium, otherwise all boats would, I think, be built in epoxy . Many however hype epoxy too much - it's a great material for racing boats, very strong, easier to predict finished weight and is highly durable over the long term. However foam sandwiched and vacuumed bagged polyester can be extremely good as well, racing competitiveness can still be very long (eg Tasar) and many will argue that it is even better than epoxy in some uses. However it is more difficult to be consistent with polyester as opposed to epoxy in relation to eventual weight, that is down to basic characteristics of the material and the chemical processes involved ... and yes the approach of the builder. Blaze720 (aka Cirrus Raceboats) |
Posted By: chrisg
Date Posted: 10 Nov 07 at 10:42am
Hate to say this but we measured all of the 300's at our club (Draycote) and the mast rakes on them were all different. With one of the biggest fleets in the Uk (8 now regularly racing) our sample ranges from oldish boats 310's up to newest 500's. Can't quite remember the differences but it was measured in inches i think not mm's. Inland Sea may have had it written down somewhere. |
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 10 Nov 07 at 11:03am
|
Now I know why I don;t do very well in Laser Races, I have a heavy boat!!! Right time to get the weigh scales out! ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Nov 07 at 11:28am
That's an interesting story, since I think there has never been a single world Open world Laser championships were sailors were allowed to select boats or take their own. The sailors get the boat allotted to them. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 1:53pm
|
I think these tales of 10kg variance are a load of BS ... We visited the Laser Center yesterday and I weighed Sarah's new boat and the warehouse man showed me his stock database. For each boat there were a load of items in the db including hull weight and mast rake. I don't know how they were measuring mast rake but all the numbers were almost identical. On the hull weights the range I saw (about 100 boats) in their databse was all within 1.2kg. From 57.5 to 58.7 The boats, it would seem, are all identical which is what I would expect. ------------- |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 2:52pm
|
i can believe that they used to be build to lower standards many years ago. did you happen to see what the mast rake figures were? if so what differences between the max and min were there? as with a one design sail it might make quite a difference, tom ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 2:58pm
|
chrisg, could it be the the masts were different? as my new rs300 mast is MUCH stiffer than my old one. will it also not depend on the masthead roller fitting used as the old ones had carbon ones made into the mast. new ones all use a vareo (i think) fitting, which i think is slightly longer. if you could get hold of those figures it would be really interesting to look at. i wonder what the variences in hull weight would be? tom ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 4:52pm
|
The mast rake figures were almost identical to 4 digits ...they were all so close I didn't bother to take any more notice as they were all vertually same ... ------------- |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 5:02pm
|
To be fair they have made more then enough now to be getting things right and the same! i actually visited the factory (one of i spose) which is still in banbury the other week for work. The factory itself is a right sh*t tip!! but thinking about it the boats are made from moulds arnt they?? Therefore i would of thought that there should be little or no difference in rake between boats. I cant beleive that the older boats are of any less quality! My laser 25551 is still going strong, it wont win anything but has lasted well and has had a right battering in its time!
On another note you could say the same about RS boats or any mass produced dinghy! I doubt very much if there is any real difference in hull weights etc. same as i doubt there is much difference with RS boat weights! What reason would laser make some lighter then others? ------------- |
Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 7:01pm
Rick That was a little harsh  ... clearly they now have got their act together. I'm talking about the late 80's and early 90's. As the boat is now olympic I'm sure they sorted any quality issues out. While I was there they never even measured the mast rake |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 7:03pm
Why not? the big advantage of lasers people keep trying to sell to me is that anyone can jump in any boat and (assuming its got a half decent sail and foils) have an equal chance of winning ------------- |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 7:39pm
Exactly that reason the sails mast foils everything are now shot ! The hull is scratched to buggery, and i should imagine the masy foot now leaks! Bear in mind isis that the boat is nearly 30 years old now! ------------- |
Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 7:58pm
|
having a new boat does make a difference, especially in waves. when i move out of 164644, into 184753 i noticed a huge difference. the boat feels more connected to you and gives much more accurate feedback. it also pointed slightly higher than 164644. tom ------------- Landlocked in Africa RS300 - 410 Firefly F517 - Nutshell Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 9:03pm
|
lots ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 10:25pm
Sorry ... wasn't having ago at you ... there is a lot of SMOD bashing on this forum and much of it uninformed. From what I saw at the Laser center the boats are as identical as any boat could ever be ... and as such offers great close racing. ------------- |
Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 11 Nov 07 at 10:30pm
|
Fair enough Rick. As I said they must have sorted themselves out ...... and as you can see from my sig I'm not averse to the odd smod myself for the very reason you state the close racing .. I love it just wish I could stay upright enough for long enough------------- RS300 426 18' SkiffTango Musto 051 B14 644 |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 12 Nov 07 at 1:37pm
|
The 1.2 kg range is good but that is still 2% of the overall weight. or the equivalent of a bag of suger carried on the heavy boat.
There is no reason why they cant get it to within 100g just by attaching internaly a number of 100g plates. You could even attach the plates externaly with the number of plates marked on the MOD plate. These could be removed and the boat remesured as it aged prolonging the life of the boat. I would expect the mast rake to be simelair across the batches in one factory but how much does it vary across all the molds in all the Factory's? ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: gary
Date Posted: 12 Nov 07 at 2:20pm
|
I did my work experience from school at the Laser factory in Banbury. It was back in the late 80's, but I definately remember seeing hull weights vary by 10 or so lbs (told you it was ages ago!!). I can also remember there was a big bloke there called Glen there who used to relieve me of my doughnut every morning. I expect though, that like all things in manufacturing the tolerances which can be built to have come down dramatically in the last few years and the hull weights are alot more even these days. |
