Seems even the ISAF are anti Cats

 wonder how much clout the RYA had?

 Guess i will not be renewing my membership then  time to start the Alternative Cat Class Association

me not a happy bunny

Knock me down wiff a feather !!!!

I can hardly say I'm suprised , the RYA's beligerent stance indicated we were on a hiding to nowhere , wouldn't be suprised if the go back on youth sailing too now , whats the point in that within their blinkered persuit of gold medals .

Its up to us know to unite under one banner to promote our sport , UKCRA seem best placed to do this I hope they have the balls to pick this up and run with it

How do we join ????????????

And its time folk started voting with their feet , away from the RYA , who have entwinned themselves parasitically around our sport .

I think all cat classes should seriously consider too their presence at RYA dinghy show , thats if they are asked .

Absolutely Stunned by this decision - Even with the blinkered view from the RYA I honestly did not believe that ISAF would drop the Catamaran Discipline.

Are we now the only form of sailing NOT represented at the games ???

Sounds like them and us all over again!!!

Commiserations to Tom Phipps, Chris Rashly, Adam Piggott etc, these young guys (CAT Sailors not RYA converted mono sailors) were our best chance in years to have a shot at a medal in 2012

BTW

Im really looking forward to watching the thrilling spectacle of a yngling in weymouth in 2012 i can see why the Catamaran was dropped now

[

I think you may have missed my point on this one !

The Cat sailing is very healthy worldwide it will continue.

The RYA now look to have a very weak mandate to claim they represent UK sailing.

Time for a change.........

i just cant understand how ISAF can put Match racing in for women and not for men,

I know from the ISAF's madate sailing must be equal between male and female by 2012 how the hell is this new selection fair if anything its worse

As Tornadosi said I feel sorry for Tom Phipps,Chris Rashley,Ed Barney,Andy Walsh and the Glover Brothers who have got to be some of the best young cat sailors we have ever had....

words almost fail me.

can someone please explain why we have mens dinghy and mens salad dogger dinghy? yngling whats the point ive been sailing thirty years and never even seen one.

hope the rya are proud

jim i am sure you are a nice guy but you are very naive if you think the rya didnt have anything to do with this.They were very clever in the way they put forward the disciplines that they wanted without publicly saying the disciplines that they were not in favour of.

If in any doubt you should read the minutes of the meeting held with nick dewhurst and others.

yeah jim brilliant idea come on CAT people lets work our arses off make the sport bigger do all the hard work on the admin so that if catamaran sailing gets in in 2016 the wonderful rya can take all the credit.

p.s. this is not about tornado sailing its about catamaran sailing

[/QUOTE]

Can you point to any evidence that the RYA was more in favour of a mens keelboat (or the men's heavyweight singlehander) than the multihull? [/QUOTE]
No jim i cant but if you talk to the cat sailors that met with the rya its clear that they hold cat sailing with very little regard.They couldnt even be arsed to read the minutes from the meeting before they were made publuc

Olympic matters

This year the main issue facing the ISAF Council was the elimination of one Olympic Event, as the International Olympic Committee had ruled that the sport could only award 10 Medals, instead of the current 11, at the 2012 Games.

In respect of the Olympic Equipment selection, the RYA supported eight Events, as outlined in its submission 103-07, and in respect of the two in which the RYA was silent, RYA expressed preference to retain at least one of the Men’s “heavyweightâ€� Events.  Essentially, the RYA was seeking to broaden the appeal of the sport through the introduction of an appealing modern dinghy to attract more female sailors, while retaining the spread of Events to reflect the wider sport.

The RYA was influential in discussions and supported the Events Committee recommendation (the expert committee who recommends Events and Equipment to ISAF Council) which included the eight Events in the original RYA submission as well as the Multihull and Men’s One-Person Heavyweight Dinghy Event.

However, in a one-off ballot, ISAF Council voted to eliminate the Multihull and to change the Women’s keelboat from Fleet to Match Racing.

The RYA cast its votes as follows (RYA votes in CAPS):

The RYA believes that the recommendations of the Events Committee would have moved the sport forwards, and enabled more nations and sailors to take part in Olympic sailing.  RYA is disappointed by this decision by the ISAF Council.

Now the focus will move onto the decisions at next year’s ISAF Conference in November, which will determine the Equipment to be used in each of the Events at the 2012 Games.

Copied from http://www.tornado.org - www.tornado.org

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ISAF Delares Itself To Be Monohulls Only - No Multihulls in 2012

internet - Friday, November 09, 2007
By mpg

The ISAF Council meeting began with a discussion of the recommended Events Committee slate which included Multihull Open (Event). However, it did not include a Keelboat event for either Men or Women.
Primarily because of this, the Events Committee slate of events narrowly missed receiving a majority: the vote was 16 In Favor, 19 Against, 1 Abstain

The Council then started over again, and voted for 6 Events for Men/Open & 4 Events for Women.
6 & 4 passed easily: the vote was 29 In Favor, 7 Against, 0 Abstain

The Council then voted on the Events that they wanted. Both Keelboats were voted in. The Multihull and one of the 2 person Womens dinghies were voted out.

Notes on the Council Discussion: Chris Atkins (GBR) was very strongly in favor of the Events Committee slate (which included a Multihull(Open) Event
Eric Tulla (PUR) was strongly in favor of the lasers, simple dinghies, and multihulls that are widely used by youth in his region.

Charlie Cook (USA) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and a proponent of dropping the multihull.
John Cribbin (IRL) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and strongly opposed to any 'Open' event.

Theresa Lara (VEN) strong support for Chris Atkins’ position
Spain, France, & Russia also supported multihulls. France and  Russia voted against the Events Committee slate because they wanted keelboats to be added.

Perhaps this is ISAF politics to get the 11th medal back from the IOC?

Drop a popular class; wait for the backlash then wave the backlash under the noses of the IOC who crumple and cough up an 11th event ...

Rick, very risky - It might work......

How much ladies match racing is done in the UK, I'd suggest there is a little more cat sailing. 

So the ISAF have dumped cats from the Olympics. This is bad news for sailing in general as in doing so they have dumped one of the most exciting classes for the spectator and kept slow and boring offerings such as the Star. It shows that it is more important to have friends in high places than to have an exciting boat with a big following. It defies all logic.

I read somewhere that in 2016 there has to be 5 womens and 5 mens classes (i.e no open classes) so I suspect that it will be very difficult to get support for a class with little female following beyond 2012. I wonder if they had this at the back of their minds as well as maintaining the status quo in most other respects?

Not a lot. There are thousands of women racing keelboats though. If you doubt that, get yourself along to Cowes Week.

Don't see it myself. Catamarans.....going fast in a straight line. Interesting to watch for about 15 seconds.

From http://www.tornado.org/html/news_article.asp?ArticleID=272 - http://www.tornado.org/html/news_article.asp?ArticleID=272

Notes on the Council Discussion: Chris Atkins (GBR) was very strongly in favor of the Events Committee slate (which included a Multihull(Open) Event
Eric Tulla (PUR) was strongly in favor of the lasers, simple dinghies, and multihulls that are widely used by youth in his region.

Charlie Cook (USA) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and a proponent of dropping the multihull.
John Cribbin (IRL) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and strongly opposed to any 'Open' event.

Theresa Lara (VEN) strong support for Chris Atkins’ position
Spain, France, & Russia also supported multihulls. France and  Russia voted against the Events Committee slate because they wanted keelboats to be added.

Sorry but blaming the RYA for what has happened doesn't hold water.

Reading the ISAF website, they talk of massive growth of interest in women's match racing as a justification for its inclusion. Has any one noticed this? The keelboat match racing circuit seems to be as elitist as it can possibly be and the kit costs must dwarf any Tornado.

Someone mentioned Paul Henderson and I remember an interview wuith him where he said sailing didn't need the Olympics to thrive. We have a vigorous cat scene in the Uk and globally, the boats are making huge strides technically so f**k the RYA and lets go sailing!

The above does not mean that I don't think the current campaigners and the young guys coming through haven't been shamefully treated.

It reads like a Stalinist show-trial, with the RYA cast in the role of a Trotskyist.

Notes on the Council Discussion: Chris Atkins (GBR) was very strongly in favor of the Events Committee slate (which included a Multihull(Open) Event

That's from the Tornado's website and apparently written by someone who was there. 

Stefan

If that was the case and Chris Atkins was strongly supportive why didn't the RYA support the Tornado or another cat in its submission? It is not unknown for deals to be done on voting in committees to avoid embarrassment. In any event, it does not change the fact that the RYA did not support the Tornado.

The alternative to resigning is to joining en masse and work out a way of voting the blazers off the committees.

That's very easy. Step 1: someone has to stand for election. It's rarely very hard to get elected to a sailing committee. More often a matter of having your hand bitten off.

Then they have to turn up for committee meetings and persuade others of their viewpoint. Boring, isn't it? Political skills are required. (Politics! Boo!) Setting up online petitions offers so much more instant gratification and the illusion of accomplishment.

The email address for Goran Petersson of the ISAF is mailto:goran.petersson@vinge.se - mailto:goran.petersson@vinge.se

IF you contact him please don't make it abusive.

Magnus,

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. 24 hours ago I thought the ISAF Events Committee had sobered up from their night on the tiles by deciding to axe the 2 keelboat classes - at last they have seen some sense. Get rid of the 2 most expensive boats to campaign that hardly anybody sails - obvious! They have now perfected a U turn faster than any modern political party. If ISAF cannot see that high performance dinghies are the way of the future and that the obvious way to increase female participation in the Olympics (and the sport) was the women’s high performance dinghy then there is little hope. How can you possibly justify ruling out a women’s high performance dinghy in favour of women’s match racing? How many countries have a women’s match racer? Is this the future of our sport? Compared to high performance sailing, match racing is dull and the technicalities are understood by few - there is no obvious feeder (except maybe university team racing) and the bigger countries will simply 'out coach' the smaller nations to victory. If match racing is so good why has it already been kicked out of the Olympics for the men? If it is so good then surely have it for men and women! I suspect it is simply a convenient way of getting the number of female competitors up with only 1 medal allocated. The saddest thing in all this is that Weymouth is a fantastic venue for high performance sailing and there will be lots of female 29er youth sailors who will not be able to move up to the Olympic classes. I wonder how many young sailors were asked for their opinions by ISAF? Whilst nobody will shed a tear for the Yngling which should clearly have never been an Olympic Class, what about the Tornados? Surely it offers more of a spectacle than Finn sailing? Surely it is more appealing than Star sailing?  I have sailed Stars in the Olympics and even I think they should not be in the Games. As you rightly point out there is light at the end of the tunnel as ISAF Council will probably make another U turn and change this decision when they next meet, which kind of begs the question why have the committees in the first place. I'm with you – let’s bin the committees and have a dictatorship. The question is 'who would make the best dictator?'

Keep up the good work and watch your back!

Ian

Quote:

Blimey, this is a fast moving story....Okay so now it's the Triceratornadotops that's getting the chop from the Olympics and the Dinostar and Finnasaurus are staying in the Games for 2012...it seems like whenever the music stops there's a different outcome with these ridiculous ISAF committee meetings. Worth noting too that this round of pointless discussions could all come to nought when the ISAF Council or "Long-Lunch Brigade" as they're fondly known, meet up over brandies in a month's time - they have a long history of overturning the committee decisions so in all honesty, no-one has a clue what the boats are going to be in 2012...

quote from "rule69blog"

When someone of the stature of Ian Walker speaks out, the sailing world should listen. One of the greatest sailors that Britain has ever produced, a Cambridge graduate, a legendary crew of the legendary John Merricks and the brains behind countless world-beating campaigns...oh yes and a couple of silver medals in the attic...Read this and weep ISAF... 

this is talking about the above....

found this elsewhere

So the RYA had three voices and only one voted for the multihull. Hardly a strong backing...

From the A Class worlds:

Overshadowing the racing today was the news from the ISAF that they have voted to exclude multihull racing in the 2012 Olympic Games. There are many Olympic sailors here, some of them Medalists, and the news hit hard here. In a development class such as the A-Cats, the future of the sport comes from people like we have here this week. Earlier this year, USSailing forwarded their recommendations on to the ISAF and these recommendations specifically excluded multihull racing. The stance by USSailing and other National Governing Bodies seems to send a clear message as to where they believe multihull sailing fits into their National sailing priorities. This is unfortunate in that a huge group of sailors now feel abandoned and disenfranchised by the organizations in their countries that they have relied on to help organize and further the sport of sailing in their area of interest. Hopefully, there will be interviews later in the week with some of these world class competitors that will express their opinions on this unfortunate turn of events.

Thanks for the photographic evidence Simon - Philip Tolhurst is a boat with lid sailor i.e Farr 40 what is the RYA/ISAF doing letting him vote on behalf of dinghy sailing in the Olympics. Fiona Barron sails leadmines but is in the youth development committee so I would have hoped for a more progressive view on the sport. In any case we now know 2 people to target for voting off committees.

By the way introducing women's match racing is likely to be a clever way of keeping the Yngling thing in the games.

Well, that's interesting. Assuming it's genuine - and I suspect it is - then it appears the RYA representatives were following their personal opinions, rather than an agreed RYA position. By contrast, the USA block-voted (against the multihull).

Philip Tolhurst is an active sailor competing at a high level. He also does good work representing UK big-boat sailors in the offshore committees of the ISAF (what was formerly ORC). However how this qualifies him to vote on the Olympic event selection on the basis of a personal opinion, I'm not too sure.

It all seems a rather random way to make an important decision.

AGREED - Thanks Simon

WHITE MAN SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE

ON STUDYING IT I SEE THAT ALL 3 OF THE USA REPS VOTED TO DUMP THE MULTIHULL. DESPITE THEIR SUBMISSION TO THE ISAF:

Submission: 106-07

Only some of the delegates are there as representatives of their MNAs - the 2 brits who voted against the multihull class are representatives of the ISAF offshore committee, and an ISAF VP (as indicated on the spy photo). It would be interesting to see if those individuals also voted against the Events committee proposal to get rid of keelboats (I think I can guess the answer!).

Jim C

Although they ARE technically idependant. Both where initially put forward by the RYA, so although they have GBR after their names they are independant similar to OTW judges etc.....IMHO though to say that the MNA doesnt have an influence over them would be an injustice....don't both also sit on an RYA panel?

But one has to ask why yacht representatives sit on a committee to decide on dinghy matter and vice versa?

Yes - it is well know that the Round Texel race for catamarans is huge. What went wrong?

Bob

Hi psymedic

I think you are on the wrong thread. "Furtive" seems to be contributing to the thread under "dinghy classes"

And I thought I had had too much red wine!!!

I'm not sure if the online petition is counter-productive as it is a good way of making the cat community get heard, which clearly it is not. There is no doubt that 'getting involved' would be more effective to make a change, but for the weekend sailor with an opinion there is no reason why it should not be heard.

No I'm not. I'm arguing that that they are acting as individuals, not representing an RYA policy.

Do you think there was an earthly chance that the RYA and the meeting organisers could have produced a jointly acceptable account of that meeting? The idea is ludicrous. It's quite clear that the meeting was run as a public beating for the RYA representatives. So what we have is an entirely one-sided account that we are being asked to accept as "evidence".

I don't think the multihull should have been dropped. But the way the multihull community has handled this issue is breathtaking in its naivety. Guys, if you want to change anything, you need to engage with the world as it actually works.

Chew - Welcome to the wonderful world of politics (note the small P)

There are always a quantity of little people in power - and I don't mean height

They have their own agendas and their own ideas, and while they play lip service to the lobby groups, their decision was taken long before a vote was required.  The vote is nothing more or less that a line in the sand for people to be counted

Little People with Little Minds building Little Empires - Some times also called little Hitlers

Hi Chris,

I don't know what the score was in the 60's, but offshore sailing has no chance of ever being an Olympic event.  It is far, far too expensive, logistically demanding and has its own showcase events. 

I wouldn't have minded if there had been a clear and logical selection process where there was a vote based on a common set of criteria.  But that patently didn't happen. The specialist advisory group was ignored.  The council seem unclear whether they should select boats on the grounds of media appeal, a broad international fleet, low costs, a range of crew weights or just what they think their countries can best hope to medal in.  So they were totally indecisive and used a pot pourri of criteria to come a muddled conclusion.

Is it so dumb ?

is it so smart to have the pinnacle of your sport held in a competition which you can get dropped from on political whims?? and you have absolutely F*k all influence in ???

There are many areas of multihull sailing flourishing without Olympic Intervention ,

I think recent events have shown its time to move on , multihull sailing has a great future on the worlwide stage , The Olympic committe couldn't recognise this  tough on them .

The fact they want to hold a "world class sailing event " in such a place as quingdidly doo with its poor sailing stats suggests something is awry with the whole setup .

I'm off to buy some body armour incase I get mown down by marauding hoardes of Laydees battling it out in yingtongs or whatever they call them .

ISAF Decision on Olympic Classes - Voting Analysis

The decision to remove the Olympic Multihull Event can now be attributed to political manoeuvring by the US.

After the Events Committee had voted to approve a slate of Events with 6 Men/Open and 4 Women Events, the ISAF Council overturned that decision and started a new voting process because Keelboat fans objected to their two Events being thrown out by the Events Committee. Reportedly the lobbying was led by Charles Cook (US) at a closed meeting of Council, where the previously agreed voting procedure was changed.

Delegates may have thought that the Council process was secret, but the full voting scores, which revealed the US position, were published at the end of the Conference. RYA Chief Executive, Rod Carr has confirmed with ISAF that they are correct.

The table below shows whether each representative voted for Multihulls or Keelboats, and in the few cases where they voted for both, whichever other Event they voted to drop.

Each delegate had to vote against one of the seven options. There was widespread agreement on 1 Person Dinghy, 1 Person Dinghy (Heavy), 2 Person Dinghy, 2 Person Dinghy (High Performance) and Windsurfer, all of which achieved at least 33 out of the maximum of 36 votes. That left a shoot-out for last place between Keelboats (Men) and Multihull (Open)

The biggest sailing nations have multiple representatives. These are all Anglo-Saxon, specifically Australia =2, Canada = 2, UK = 3, US =3. These additional representatives are technically independent or there to represent specific Committees, but in practice usually form a block vote.

Thus these four countries can swing a close decision, such as this. Australians voted for Multihulls and against Keelboats. Canadians voted for Keelboats and were split on Multihulls, because one represented Women, and Multihulls were the only Open class. The British voted two to one against Multihulls – the national representative voting for Multihulls, the Vice President voting against, as also could the Offshore Representative, even though this issue is inshore racing.

Thus the decisive influence was wielded by the US. Months before the Conference US Sailing had put in a Submission excluding any Multihull Event, but after that was legally challenged by US cat sailors, it entered a revised Submission including both Men and Women Events in Multihulls and Keelboats.

However, when the issue was escalated to ISAF Council, three different US representatives all voted against Multihulls and in favour of Heavyweight Single-Handed Dinghy, even though it was not on their Submission. Hal Haenel, the US Events representative, was not among the three Council members, who were Charles Cook, Cornelia Serti and David Irish, Vice President. NB Ms. Serti voted against an Event that was Open to women.

Had the US representatives voted against the Heavy Single-Hander and in favour of both Keelboats and Multihulls according to their Submission, the votes would have been Keelboat = 23 and Multihull = 24, so Keelboats would have lost out at Council, as they did at the Events Committee.

US sailors wanting to ask their representatives for an explanation can contact them as follows.

Charles Cook mailto:chascook@optonline.net - chascook@optonline.net Tel +1 617 439 7505

Cornelia Serti mailto:coryserti@rochester.rr.com - coryserti@rochester.rr.com Tel +1 585 248 5490

David Irish mailto:daveirish@irishboatshop.com - daveirish@irishboatshop.com Tel +1 231 526 6225

 If you bother to do your research before jumping to conclusions I think you'll find that;

1] Chris Atkins the only official RYA delegate on the ISAF council not only voted for the multihull but also spoke strongly in support of the events committee "slate" which included a multihull.

2] The RYA did not put in a submission to drop the catamaran discipline.

3] Fiona Barron the ISAF Vice President has GBR after her name because that is where she lives. She is independent [and is rquired to be so by ISAF] does not take the RYA whip. This is an ISAF  selected post, not an RYA one.

4] Philip Tolhurst is also selected by ISAF [not the RYA]  he also does not take the RYA whip, and probably felt that he should support keelboats as he is the Chairman of the ISAF Offshore Committee.

5] The RYA withdrew their proposal that threatened the inclusion of a multihull class at the ISAF youth Champs...as they said they would. 

The multihull community may well not like the outcome of last Friday's debate but to scapegoat the RYA is unjustified and innacurate.

The RYA does not agree with the outcomes of the Olympic debate at the ISAF conference and has said so....see statement on the RYA website.

As for whether committee members act independently ....in "ISAF speak" the Council is not a committee.Others like events and womens are committees.The chairman of offshore comm. and the VPs do not either speak for or represent the nations in which they happen to live.

The ISAF constitution dictates that events [not classes] for a particular OG have to be decided in the November before the preceeding Games. So it is difficult to see that there is either the time, or the will from the leaders to change the outcomes. If they did try no doubt there would be a swift legal challenge from the other [ currently selected events] I'd surprised if a petition to the IOC would cut any ice as events from other sports have been dropped despite protests from their constituency.The only possibility may be to appeal direct to Rogge, the IOC president, who is a sailor for an extra event [like the Stars did] For this to work the Cat community would have to stop sl*gging off the already selected events and whinging about the politics, and work up a comprehensive and well argued case for inclusion.

You never know you might even get support from the ISAF Exec., the majority of whom probably realise that they have a less than ideal slate of classes 

I think the international cat community has to take the lead on this. As far as the IOC/ISAF are concerned the MNAs have had their say at the ISAF Council mtg. and therefore they are unlikely to review the case if it is led by a disgruntled MNA.

BTW your inflamatory statements about forming breakaway groups and the RYA not being inclusive hardly endears youself to those who are trying to give good advice!

Forget about using words like "protesting " try being constructive, logical , persuasive and political. Work offline and behind the scenes with others across the world; find out who your allies are [eg start with those MNAs who voted for cats] Get some real statistics and most of all show how cats can contribute to the IOCs goals for 2012.

Agreed; Bigcat, whom ever he or she is, appears to be on our side and is giving some sound advice.  Lets not all get negative on this issue, "having a go" may make us all feel better, but does it really help the situation catamaran sailing is in ?

I think the international cat community has to take the lead on this. As far as the IOC/ISAF are concerned the MNAs have had their say at the ISAF Council mtg. and therefore they are unlikely to review the case if it is led by a disgruntled MNA.

[/QUOTE

The biggest issue with this is cat sailor (and women who sail high proformance boats) thought they were represented by ISAF, you say that forming break away movement would not help our cause but at the moment we do not have a world wide representation because we were relying on ISAF

Having spoken to members of the RYA over recent days... and apologies to those I haven't got back too yet, will do as soon as I get rid of this gallbladder and feel fit enough too, I couldn't let comments against the RYA go unchallenged. If you read previous posts I am NOT a lover of the RYA, I do feel that they are living in the past and need to accept the sport has changed, they are similar to the way the RFU was run a few years ago, and where seriously misguided and underestimated the support of the multihull in this country, IMHO, HOWEVER, they are genuinely dissapointed and upset at the loss of the catamaran from the olympics for 2012. IMHO I think they thought that it would be one of the show piece events for Weymouth....... saying that I therefore can't understand their initial proposal that didn't support a multihull, however we have had that argument ........the RYA DID vote for a multihull.

As multihull sailors we should stop blaming the RYA, unite like we did against the RYAs proposal, and see how we can move forward unified and get the multihull back in the Olympics where it belongs...hopefully with the RYA support.

if the RYA are so naive in being dissapointed and upset that their incomprehensible tactics failed to secure a multihull slot in the 2012 olympics ,perhaps their display of incompetetance in such an important matter would lead to a lack of confidence in their abilities .?

Perhaps the sceptics had it all stitched up ?

Doubt as they say in these matters we will ever know nor will the full truth come out  .

Whatever happened its imperative to move forwards .and learn from the whole sordid affair .